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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 2616389" data-attributes="member: 326">Hey Grover! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Yes but its not like these beings were central to the story, added to which he introduced so many monsters that fully describing them all would have taken a monster manual 3.You identified the Iron Shadow and the Last Word as multiversal threats - I was simply asking how those events were resolved in continuity?You have to remember that at the time of 1st Edition AD&D, Gravestone, by virtue of levels alone (at least 34th) was probably more powerful than the Monster Manuals rendition of Demogorgon. My moneys on Elminster! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Personally I hate that arbitrary jive. All power is relative. You can dress it up with some sort of 'they are on a different level' spin all you want but it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. However, if thats the approach that floats your boat good luck to you.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />  More henchmen, than cannon-fodder I thought.Personally I don't see any difference in terms of power, only scale. Well, lets examine that. Basically what we are talking about is between 2-4 mortals in the entire world who eventually end up being more powerful than say a 1st Ed. Demon Prince (Gravestone and Gord certainly, possibly including Leda and Gellor). Added to which the three heroes (and likely Gravestone to some capacity) were kitted out by divine beings as well as each possessing one or more artifacts. Wrong. The novels still showed parity. What you are forgetting is that the Demon Princes were stronger in the Abyss which is where most of the action takes place, hence the reason the daemon masters seem weaker when they do battle there.I'll take it over the 2nd Edition High Level Handbook anyday.The comments towards substance were mentioned in a 'pound for pound' fashion. Planescape was clearly grounded in style over substance, obviously I am not arguing that it had no substance at all.Nor would I argue the material was poor, on the contrary I thought it was good (I own four boxed sets of the stuff), but it just didn't offer what I was looking for...though I kept hoping things would change and thus kept buying.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":o" title="Eek!    :o"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":o" /> I understand some of the choices made by the designers, incorporating all the low level stuff for instance, but to me that just made the planes cuddly. Doubly so with the removal of  what passed for divine/quasi-divine level opposition.</blockquote>

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