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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Bryan898" data-source="post: 2648660" data-attributes="member: 9085">I don't know about anyone else, but in my campaigns deities don't have true bodies.  They're fully capable of creating avatars, but their avatars sit in the 30's range as well.  Their lives and powers are based completely on beliefs, and if no one believes in them they die.  While Kurtulmak may very well have worlds full of kobold followers, they aren't going to do much good against the hordes of devils at the disposal of the Lords of the Nine.  Nor is Kurtulmak's avatar going to get very far when the Lords themselves have guard battalions that number in the thousands, as well as more powerful creatures.As far as my campaigns go, the CR 30 area is the Top of the pyramid and it's ruled by the ancient creatures that date to the creation of the planes.  If PCs hit that level, they're legends to the planes that can stand against god's avatars, demon lords, etc.  They still lack the power base that those others have built over thousands of years, and hence they're weaker.  I don't care what level you are, a million baatezu coming your way is a problem.As for the Fiendish Codex, I'd love to see the archfiends and demon lords statted out.  I used Mephistopheles (though I increased his power) as a climax to a long term campaign that ended at 28th level, and as I understand it that's generally how they're used.  Even BoVD style worked for me, as it provides a good base to work with.  It's easy to increase something's power, what takes time is coming up with the abilities the creature has, skills, etc.  Then the real kicker is giving it a CR, which they do for you.</blockquote>

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