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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aaron L" data-source="post: 2650122" data-attributes="member: 926">This is why I wish they would make the archfeind stats at least somewhere reasonable in comparison to the stats provided for the gods.  I LOVE U_Ks systematic treatment of the subject.  I see gods and archfeinds and everything in a Lovecraftian way:  These are alien beings of immense power;  gods are godsnot because they have worshippers, gods have gods because we microbe like lesser beings are awed by thier power and want some scraps for ourself.  I've always despised the idea that gods are powered by thier worshippers.  Azathoth doesnt need any dust speck humans (or Mi-Go, or what have you) to be the primordial nuclear chaos that he is; he simply IS.  I like the treatment of the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods in CoC d20.  Geat Cthulhu himself is just a lowly demigod, an alien entity of such immense power that he is of divine rank by vitrtue of his ablities.  Azathoth, Shub-Niggurath, and Yog-Sothoth, on the other hand, are personifications of universal principles, and are of a whole other level of power.  I see no reason why demon princes and dukes of Hell should be any different; if a being has such immense power, then he should have divine rank.  A whole slew of these beings even HAVE cults and worshippers just as Cthulhu does.  The only reason I can see that they DONT have a divine rank is so that it is conceivable that PCs could fight them withiout having to be upwards of 70th level, but then that throws the whole logic of the cosmology out of whack.  So what we need is some explanation or mechanic as to why the gods havent eliminated these beings, but a way that it is still possible for a group of mortals to still challenge thier power and be a reasoble threat with a chance of fighting them.       I,of course, have no problem with characters needing to be in the high multiples of 10 levels to fight archfeinds (and love epic levels), but I know most of you out there dont.  So some knd of scaling mechanic might be in order.  Maybe some similiar to the proxie mechanic from D&Dg, or the Aspect monsters from the Miniatures Handbook;  if you want your party to fight Demogorgon, you have them fight a reflection of his Abyssal monstrousness that is projected onto your planet, or whatever, but the real essence of the beast is still in the Abyss, his seat of power infusing him with godlike status, not wanting to commit full power to a fight and make himself vulnerable to gods whacking him while he's outside of his area of power, or afraid of an absence leaving an opening for some other demon lord to step in while he isnt there and possibly usurp his ties to the plane.  Theres a possible idea: a mechanic whereby other fiends can establish ties to thier native plane to increase thier power, but doing so restricts thier ability to fully leave the place and they must always keep the bulk of themselves on thier home plane or some other being may step in to wrest thier power from them, but let the archfiends have Aspects the same way that gods have Avatars.  It even has precedent in WotC literature.  Maybe make planar bind points  (somewhat like like planar touchstones) where fiends of a certain power level can establish a tie to the plane and gain a divine rank while they are at that location, but limit the number of such bind points such that they are fought over and limit the number of demon princes, archdevils, and so on.  Pardon my rambling.</blockquote>

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