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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sundragon2012" data-source="post: 2657543" data-attributes="member: 7624">I have to chime in here because something always bothered me about the archfiends from 1e til now.According to their write ups, these creatures have control over entire planes of existance, entire infinite realms of existance much like someone having complete control of our universe, not just our galaxy, but countless billions of galaxies within the measureless expanse of our reality. And just like our universe has no "crystal sphere" neither do those in DnD any longer. So we are talking about infinite spaces here.Now, think about this. Grazz't controls 3 layers of the abyss, that is three infinite realities, each of which, being infinite can contain as many inhabitants as every other plane of existance combined. Grazz't rules everyone and everything therein as sovereign. Same goes for Orcus, Demogorgon, Baphomet, etc. though the numbers of infinite realities each controls is different.How the hell do creatures with CRs of 23-32 control entire realities of infinite space? It seems utterly ridiculous to me to think that these creatures, who epic level PCs can slaughter, are the immortal "gods" of their own realities and are in fact so completely, for the responsibilities assigned to them, pathetically weak and cosmically inconsequential.Now I could imagine a few logical workarounds that make sense (and please no...."this is a game so internal consistancy needn't apply"...in that case the new book should include Papa Smurf and Batman as archfiends because you can have that if no one looks at internal consistancy).Onto the workarounds:1.) Archfiends are empowered by the plane they dominate. They are nearly omnipotent and omniscient within the planes they rule providing them with the temporal and spiritual power to utterly dominate the entire plane(s) they rule. Outside of those realms, they are statted and slayable. This of course makes them invincible within their realms which is a no-no in the modern D&D era which requires that every sentient being be killable by a group of superhe....um...epic PCs with cool epic weapons. 2.) They are actually gods as they were in Planescape/2e and their avatars are what appears in the BoVD and similar write ups. They rule the planes as gods should, absolutely.3.) They really don't rule their planes absolutely, but instead have the most control within a chaotic and mad realm of any creature therein. For all intents and purposes they are the mightiest demons/devils/yugoloths/etc. with the best press within their perspective realities their power lying not in divine power but in control and resources others in their planes cannot approach.4.) They really don't rule entire planes and it is nothing more than a bit of poetic license that ever allowed such cosmically weak and fallible creatures to do so. In the ancient world, a regional event was sometimes described as a world destroying cataclysm because the people affected saw their land as the center of the world.These are the possibilities that allow for internal consistancy and good sense in regards to who and what these creatures are.I am partial to options 3 and 4 myself. Others like the god thing (which I do not save in a setting by setting basis) and some may like the over the top stat blocks put together by the folks at Dicefreaks. YMMV.Chris</blockquote>

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