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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shemeska" data-source="post: 2694604" data-attributes="member: 11697">Then read 'Faces of Evil' because it's flat out stated in there. Would you like the page number? IIRC there's a few other direct references to the idea as well outside of that source.According to the Tanar'ri it is. See aforementioned source.No, not really. I haven't seen Grover/Rip make anything up really this whole 'debate', just instances where you're not as familiar with the sources he's pulling ideas from, or instances where you just don't agree with his take on a topic.Except that they have been before depending on the circumstances and where any such deific vs abyssal lord conflict would have taken place. 3.x, with its (albeit lamentable) stance on giving true deities stats, has just taken the opposite stance apparently in order to make archfiends viable targets for PCs. The stance on this has varied between editions and even within editions, but I'll end there because we're already discussed this elsewhere, and I'd rather not revisit that exercise in futility. He never said that, read his original comment more closely. He was simply saying that even if Orcus could, he would have no desire to do so given his chaotic nature.It's the outer planes, not everything makes sense, nor should it. Not everything is or even should be, nailed down and precisely defined in easy to understand terms. Even if you don't like it, that's the way it is, and that's the way they have been defined as for quite a long time. The realms of the Abyssal Lords are in fact infinite if they manage to exert their control over the entirety of their chosen layer, Graz'zt has three of them under his sway for instance.</blockquote>

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