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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ripzerai" data-source="post: 2696846" data-attributes="member: 38324">It seems unnecessarily complex to me, but I guess tastes vary.The original spirit of the character had him as a non-deity who ruled an entire layer of the Abyss. By making him a lesser deity you hold true the the later, post-Deities & Demigods spirit of the character. Both incarnations were broken, in that a lesser deity isn't reasonably going to be one of the three greatest rulers of the Abyss in a multiverse where greater deities and beings of still greater power exist.That was broken too, but Planescape later fixed that by implying that planar lords had powers that allowed them to shrink and move the realms of even the gods - albeit slowly - by will alone. It would have been more fixed if this was stated explicitly, but as this is what Levistus is doing, it's fairly clear. And honestly, not statting the deities was something of a fix at well.And there's plenty of ways to express power level without formal stats, so it's hardly irrelevant. Use your imagination, for God's sake. I'm sure Demogorgon lasts a lot longer as a lesser deity, but he's still very weak compared to your intermediates, greaters, Old Ones, and so on, and he was weak compared to greater gods in 1st edition, too. Maybe they wouldn't win every competition, depending on how the dice went, but they'd kill Demogorgon more times than not.That's just bad game design. I feel the same way about "kosmic localization." I think it's the sort of idea that only its creator can truly get into - it doesn't do anything but arbitrarily limit the multiverse to solve "problems" that don't exist.Rather, the process of baatezu advancement isn't remotely like butterfly metamorphosis, and baatezu never experience birth at all. It's most like the process of refining and engraving steel weapons - no biological analogy is appropriate. Higher-caste baatezu physically subject their subject to flames capable of melting basic spiritual essence, and kocrachons physically carve additional sigils in the baatezu's soul. It's a very industrial process, and it bears no similarity to birth except in the sense that the baatezu begins a new existence after it's finally done.We know that tanar'ri can breed from the Monster Manual. If they can breed with others, why can't they breed with one another? Faces of Evil explained that baatezu females were sterile, but that tanar'ri and yugoloths had no problems successfully breeding. That nicely illustrates the different approaches of Law and Chaos - baatezu design the inability to breed into their species in order to eliminate nepotism and force every member of their species to go through the same trials from lemure status on, thus creating a uniformity that their nature appreciates. Tanar'ri leave it up to the individual and the whims of the nalfeshnee where the stock of their next generation will come from, and trust in the hostility of their plane to weed out weaklings. Yugoloths prefer to teach each of their kind the same lessons from mezzoloth on, but leave sex as an option because they appreciate chaotic tactics as much as lawful ones. It's a powerful, elegant design.Abstract ideals are the real trump card. Outer planar outsiders live or die based on the alignments they personify. Agricultural breeding doesn't strengthen outsiders of chaos - it weakens them. Adding order to the species weakens them in hit dice, morale, intelligence, and even numbers. The more they try to farm themselves, the fewer and weaker they become. The wilder they are, the stronger and more numerous they become. It's all tied to their behavior and the behavior they induce in others, and their precise reproductive mechanics are not relevant. Tanar'ri are far more numerous, but they fight among themselves and are poorly organized. Baatezu are less numerous, but they're more focused and coordinated. The two balance one another out precisely: tanar'ri have exactly as many numbers as it takes to overcome their organizational handicap. The individual layers of the Abyss have exactly the strength and numbers proportional to the influence of that layer's ideals. All outsiders precisely represent the strengths and weaknesses of their respective alignments, and if some detail about the system as it's presently structured were to change, their counterparts would change as well until it was balanced again. For example, if the baatezu started breeding themselves in endless kennels, the tanar'ri would begin emerging spontaneously from their plane in greater numbers to balance it. The only way for one Abyssal ruler to gain a numerical advantage over another or for one planar race to gain a real advantage over another is by shifting the dominance of the ideals they represent. If devilkind inspires more corruptive Law over the worlds, they'll gain more souls and more power and the forces of Chaos and Good won't be able to compete. If the eladrins, chaotic devas, and asuras inspire more happy freedom, they'll increase in power and the forces of despotism will wither. That's why outsiders care about the Material Plane.</blockquote>

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