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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 2697557" data-attributes="member: 326">Howdy Rip! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Thats exactly right, tastes do vary. The (1st Ed.) Monster Manual never said he wasn't a deity. Obviously there was no point referencing the matter unless you are going to explain it further, for which the Monster Manual was inappropriate. Actually, according to (1st Ed.) Manual of the Planes there were no Greater Powers (or Intermediate Powers) dwelling in the Abyss because they would constantly have to contend with the demons.As we can see from reading the Gord the Rogue books, in the face of an outside threat, the demons will grudgingly band together to combat and expel the interloper (a facet of their inherantly racist nature). So while a greater deity of evil might be able to defeat one demon prince (even with its home plane advantage), it would not be able to defeat the combined power of the Abyss which would rise against them.No greater deity is going to defeat the combined forces of the Abyss in their home plane (unless we assign quasi-deity power to the most powerful demon princes). What good is that going to do them when they are dead at the hands of their near-omnipotent divine adversary. Any intelligent deity (which is funny because they are all virtually omniscient in 2nd Ed.) is going to either destroy or otherwise expel the current ruler and then make their realm on his layer. What the heck was the point of them talking about 2nd Edition deities in that sort of physical capacity anyway - it was all a bunch of arbitrary nonsense.On the contrary the omission of stats was akin to spitting in the faces of epic/immortal gamers.  There are plenty of ways to roleplay without formal stats, but thats not the point.The point is that there are many campaigns out there who want to use deities in a physical capacity, and its bordering on a disgrace that you and your cohorts continually whine, hiss and moan about the matter. No one is forcing you to buy the likes of Deities & Demigods.Your usual lame response is "well WotC should be spending their resources in other areas." But who the hell died and made you the Fuhrer of roleplaying that you can dictate how other people should and shouldn't game.The idea of begrudging someone else their joy (whether that be in the form of a book about Deities, Eberron, Psionics or whatever else) is just the very definition of a spiteful 'hater'.I'm not against some book that delves into religions without including the stats (I own the Book of the Righteous for one), it may not be my preference I don't throw a hissy fit at the first suggestion of such a book.On his home plane he could personally hold his own against intermediate opposition, factor in all his major servants and its unlikely he would be defeated by such a threat. But so what that he is weaker than an Overgod. He doesn't have to continually contest with them! Thats like saying someones 1st-level PC is a lot weaker than Orcus - well whoop de doo! What a revelation! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />So, just to clarify, why do these pantheon heads have a beef with Demogorgon again? Not at all.Theres nothing arbitrary about it. It links the outer planes directly to each prime material world, because its the dead spirits of that particular world who become demons, devils etc. in the first place.So what if the actual process isn't exactly the same, the outcome is inherantly familiar! Unlike demons then...supposedly! Do I reference Durzugons now or later?So you wouldn't describe it as a 'metamorphosis' at all then?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />  Did somebody hear the word Durzugon just mentioned?Even though the breeding idea galls me personally, it has negligable significance to our discussion unless it can be exploited by the planar rulers, which you have stated it cannot. It could be the products of a continual mass orgy. So are you saying now that universal balance cannot be upset?Fanciful hokum, but hokum nonetheless. You make it sound as if actual physical combat between demon princes or their armies is irrelevant.</blockquote>

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