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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 2700061" data-attributes="member: 326">Howdy Rip! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />So is Tiamat not a deity then?This all seems a bit needlessly nit-picky. It didn't mention it in the Monster Manuals (where it wasn't really necessary) but it mentions it in both Deities & Demigods and Manual of the Planes (where it was necessary). Its not a matter of whether the deity can get there, its a matter of whether they can best the adversary in their home plane and, more to the point, whether they are willing to take the risk to do so.You'll notice in the original stats that it remarks on Demogorgons enmity with Orcus. It doesn't talk of their enmity with a lone Vrock. Rivals require rivalry. Demogorgon is not the rival of anonymous greater deity 'y'. So theres no impetus for either to war with the other, its not a fire Demogorgon is likely to fuel.Your idea that deities are always gunning for weaker deities as trophies doesn't add up, and neither is it something thats solved by making the likes of Demogorgon a greater deity, because he would still be prey to Overgods and so on and so forth.  Theres also the notion that overarching deities of evil won't take kindly to upstart greater deities of elsewhere invading their 'turf'. Those sort of actions are going to lead to reprisals or all out war in some cases, unless there is an established enmity amongst the protagonists to begin with.One greater deity versus multiple lesser powers, I don't fancy his chances that much. In fact it actually states this in 1st edition Manual of the Planes!"While a united devilkind is too powerful to defeat, they are not powerful enough or unified enough to launch a war and drive Set from 'their' Hells."Well cropped. It actually says "Few Greater Powers make the Abyss their home, as they would have to continually deal with the upstart demon life that fills the plane."Its perfectly clear that the sentence implies there are none, otherwise the word 'would', would be redundant.It then goes on to list those deities who do have realms in the Abyss and confirms there are no greater deities amongst them!I'll struggle on. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />None of which are even a remote threat to the demons stranglehold on power in the Abyss...and most of which probably are souped up demons anyway. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Unless they view them as a threat to their dominance.1st Edition wasn't broken at all (see above). I agree with you about 3rd Edition though.On the contrary, he succeeded with aplomb.I was only biting on the "make them yourself, use your imagination for God's sake" line.So to take the mature stance...you started it! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> Yes, but, as with their masters, they are going to be relatively weaker than the natives. The trophy idea isn't really that practical (see above).Deities are not stupid, they are not likely to risk their very immortality on a whim.Very unlikely. Even assuming Hextor's native layer was also the 9th (otherwise he'd have no chance at all), he would have to get past Asmodeus interior defenses and defenders before he got to Asmodeus anyway. With equal forces you would still be at a massive disadvantage because the defenders will have had centuries to prepare the defenses.Agreed, but I don't think we need them now (see my previous post to you on this). I half suspected Planescape would concoct some arbitrary excuse for it. So to win they have to upset the balance, but to upset the balance they have to win - it all seems a bit circular.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /></blockquote>

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