Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 2703197" data-attributes="member: 326">Hey Rip! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I don't really see it as a retcon, as it didn't really change anything.There you go then.There was no cosmology problem as I see it, and 2nd Edition was clearly badly designed from that point of view.I fail to see how Planescape 'worked better'? Orc Pantheon: 1 Greater Deity, 5 Lesser Deities and presumably a few Demi and Quasi-deitiesArchdevils: 9 Lesser Deities, 99 Quasi-deities, Pit Fiend Legions and so forth. I don't see that as very one-sided.  The realm is the only barrier needed.I'm not limiting him as much as I am playing him intelligently. Hes not going to pick a fight he can't win. Graz'zt was fighting both the other factions at once, thats why he was hemmed in. But Graz'zt had the Theorpart and the Eye of Deception (most powerful artifact ever created in the Abyss).Well, even if we remove the Theorpart from all factions the power groups are still consistent. But we can forget the matter if you wish.Well, I was trying to second guess you were using 3rd Edition. Remember Greater Power is different in 2nd/3rd Ed.I think Demogorgon on his home plane would probably defeat most (1st Ed.) Greater Gods (likely not the real heavy hitters of course like Thor or some of the Pantheon Heads)2nd Edition, bleh. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> Okay so you have now established there are multiple powers beyond Greater Power.I think the introduction of beings more powerful than greater powers should be used sparingly. I generally tend to think of them as the old ones, they might be dormant, or trapped, or bound. But occasionally they'll slip their dimensional shackles and pantheons of gods will have to ally to defeat them, even if its only a temporary defeat - returning them to their prison.  Absolutely.I don't really like that constraint. Like I said, its something to be used sparingly, but it does occasionally happen.I have always found the Pantheons of the Megaverse supplement to be very evocative on this subject.Well again this brings us back to the whole black and white solution. If we can allow mortals to interact with immortals then we can also allow immortals to interact with siderals (cosmic gods). because Demogorgon (and his forces) wasn't as hampered by being a non-native. I think he might have had trouble forcing them to do his bidding (with home plane advantage), but he was clearly more powerful.Absolutely.Well, the General only rules Gehenna, Infestix ruled Gehenna, Hades and Tarterus.I disagree. He was clearly greater than them.I think they allied with him because they too wanted Tharizdun released. He rules, but hes more the head of government than a dictator with absolute power.I disagree. First of all, a cursory glance at Nerulls 1st Edition stats tells us he is way more powerful than Anthraxus. Nerull was not only a Greater God, but with 400 hp effectively on a par with Pantheon Heads. Whereas Anthraxus (most powerful Daemon Master) was at best a Lesser Power. Secondly, Nerull was able to demote/promote Daemon Masters at will, as shown in the book. He is also refered to as the Nether Emperor in the books as well, whereas other evil beings are refered to as kings, at best). I think with a strong enough ruler, control of the Abyss is possible. But you would really need to be far more powerful than your rivals.Gygax introduced the Arch-Deva as well (who may or may not have been Pelor?), which, reading between the lines was Nerulls good counterpart.So if we have Archons, Guardinals and Eladrins for good. Demons, Daemons and Devils for evil, the Angels would seemingly be something else.Nerull could be daemonic in the same sense as the Baernoloths, who could be angelic counterparts rather than Archon/Guardinal/Eladrin counterparts.That chart only applies to the Spiritual Hierarchies, not deities (of other origin) though. Absolutely.  I think on a Pantheon to Planar Hierarchy basis the devils and demons could hold their own in their home plane.I agree, but that power difference would be gained via worshippers rather than planar control. Why?  Its a very clear point of grammar as far as I can see.I agree, but its also pretty clear how beings of a certain power would fit into a given plane. I don't remember ever reading Gruumsh was jostling for control of the Hells?Any deity can block Plane Shift to their realm (as per page 126 Manual of the Planes).Once you get killed you are banished from the plane/world for a century.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> I agree. You'll like my interpretation. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Relatively speaking its the same increase though.Its a matter of editions and what exactly constitutes a greater deity.I think it would have helped to have all the details listed in one place.   On their home plane they were. The book mentions that such a being is weakened. I don't see how being twice as powerful is weakened. The being should have to rejuvenate its destroyed manifestation. Wouldn't save Heironeous. By following the silver cord Demogorgon would be transported directly to Heironeous place of rejuvenation. Heironeous might have some of his own servants on high alert just in case of his defeat (given where he was going initially), but would his servants be able to defeat Demogorgon? Perhaps if Demogorgon was heavily wounded (although if thats the case he might not take the risk in the first place.Firstly they would have to find out, secondly, they would either have to locate Demogorgons rejuvenation manifestation hideout (which is likely to be very well hidden) and thirdly they would have to take it by force (likely very well defended). By that time Demogorgon should be back on his feet.That rule always seemed to contradict Deities & Demigods (page 11) - we certainly never used it. The reason is, if Heironeous attacks Demogorgon without provocation, hes in effect the bad guy in the western 'drawing first'. The forces of good are not going to 'pull out all the stops to avenge Heironeous' if he 'started it'. I never said they were. They are powers unto themselves, but they are not invincible.I'd have Ravana as an Intermediate Power of Acheron. But we are in agreement that the 3rd Edition rules are not perfect.Yes, its a great addition. Something similar happened to my deity character. My Lawful Good deity character was gated (I went willingly - don't ask) in by Mephisto to a sealed steel smooth well, which was immediately engulfed in Anti-Magic (which worked on deities back then). Above the well was a multi-ton block of solid steel on a chain (like a big plug). Basically my character was held to ransom by the Mephisto faction for quite a lot of money/magic and so forth.Remember also that Asmodeus could have areas of anti-magic. Areas with access via teleports or gates only (which could have other enchantments like energy draining without the proper key etc.). Hell also have rooms full of guards who can detect invisible (most devils), or smell you (hell hounds), or some with true seeing. Mechanical traps. Lead lined locked doors (which you can't ethereally travel through). Trapped dead ends. Basically it should make the Tomb of Horrors look like a picnic. To be fair some of the Monster Manual Archdevil (or Demon Prince) stats didn't seem to fully make sense.I mean Asmodeus lists 1 attack and 4-14 damage. But logically that should be weapon damage + strength + cause serious wounds. Also he should have 2 attacks (consistent with MM2 arch-devils). Assuming he doesn't use the breath weapon power of his Rod.Baalzebul's stats are even more ridiculous.Hextor should also have an extra attack for being a 16th-level Fighter.  I can't see him sneaking any in without being detected. Which will give Asmodeus ample time to prepare a welcoming committee. Remember Lesser Powers (and Demi-powers) can Summon (1d6 creatures up to 30 HD, 20 HD for demipowers) and Gate as their major abilities.Whats more likely is that Asmodeus will learn of Hextors attack and then have him run a gauntlet of traps and challenges that lead to a specially prepared kill room where Asmodeus waits with his 99 toughest Pit Fiend bodyguards and as many of his Dukes of Hell that can be gathered in time. The Pit Fiends can screen Asmodeus while he uses his magic (or rod)Very nice! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />Of course my rules take the good ideas from the rest. Hextor would convert to 56th-level (32nd Fighter, 5th Rogue, 19th Assassin). Asmodeus would convert to 49 Hit Dice Outsider with 24th-level integrated Cleric Spellcasting as well as his spell-like abilities.</blockquote>

Verification