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<blockquote data-quote="GVDammerung" data-source="post: 2705431" data-attributes="member: 33060">To say, &quot;It's moot,&quot; takes the easy way out and avoids the point by attempting to evade the inconvenient.When that article was written there was no D&amp;D cosmology comparable to the detail that exists now.&nbsp; If it excluded itself, it excluded itself from what was then written and nothing more.&nbsp; So much for &quot;mootness.&quot;&nbsp; Any mootness is moot&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> as the D&amp;D cosmology has moved on.The entire &quot;fallen angel&quot; idea has now been adopted into the D&amp;D cosmology.&nbsp; I'm not sure without looking whether Lucifer is mentioned in other D&amp;D sources, but assuming he is not, he is entirely relevant to the &quot;fallen angle&quot; idea, nonetheless.Certainly, in the wider world of D&amp;D licensed/approved material Lucifer is mentioned.&nbsp; Tome of Horrors leaps immediately to mind for the present 3X edition.As an aside, IMO, when you argue D&amp;D cosmology and exclude _any_ D&amp;D material, licensed, &quot;approved&quot; etc. you are arguing in an artificially small pond.&nbsp; Except for IP purposes of interest primarily to lawyers, D&amp;D was never just TSR and it is certainly not just Wotc.&nbsp; To imagine otherwise, unless your game follows international copyright treaties in addition to the PH, DMG and MMs, is another avoidance of the inconvenient.&nbsp; My two cents.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="GVDammerung, post: 2705431, member: 33060"] To say, "It's moot," takes the easy way out and avoids the point by attempting to evade the inconvenient. When that article was written there was no D&D cosmology comparable to the detail that exists now. If it excluded itself, it excluded itself from what was then written and nothing more. So much for "mootness." Any mootness is moot ;) as the D&D cosmology has moved on. The entire "fallen angel" idea has now been adopted into the D&D cosmology. I'm not sure without looking whether Lucifer is mentioned in other D&D sources, but assuming he is not, he is entirely relevant to the "fallen angle" idea, nonetheless. Certainly, in the wider world of D&D licensed/approved material Lucifer is mentioned. Tome of Horrors leaps immediately to mind for the present 3X edition. As an aside, IMO, when you argue D&D cosmology and exclude _any_ D&D material, licensed, "approved" etc. you are arguing in an artificially small pond. Except for IP purposes of interest primarily to lawyers, D&D was never just TSR and it is certainly not just Wotc. To imagine otherwise, unless your game follows international copyright treaties in addition to the PH, DMG and MMs, is another avoidance of the inconvenient. My two cents. [/QUOTE]

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