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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ripzerai" data-source="post: 2705975" data-attributes="member: 38324">If the Dukes of Hell are lesser powers, the Lords of the Nine should be greater powers. I'm okay with that, but we're venturing far beyond our earlier parameters. Don't forget Luthic - every party needs a healer. Shargaas and Yutrus can boat in using the Styx, if worse comes to worst; Charon doesn't care who he gets his coins from. Or they could simply planeshift instantaneously into Nishrek if they're not interested in the scenic view. Then I get to negate the "lesser powers are immune to magic in their home realms" jive too, and everything else in the MotP. If we're making stuff up as we go along, debate is impossible. C'mon, man, let's be hardcore! We have to use all the 1st edition rules, or we can't fairly judge whether the 1st edition cosmology is perfect or not.Then it's reasonable for the Norse gods to be angry at Demogorgon. It is, though.and <a href="http://www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/fatherlucifer.html" target="_blank">my old take on Lucifer is here</a>. I think I'd demote him today, make him just a fallen solar living in Avernus. Asmodeus, as a being of despotism incarnate, rules his plane far more thoroughly than the General rules Gehenna. Demogorgon, as a being of primal chaos, gains more power from not ruling than he would from ruling; the war and chaos and strife created by his style gift him with far more power than attempting to imitate the Overlord of Hell would. I think he may be the only demon prince who truly understands that.Certainly. If Set had attempted to go against Geryon during his administration the scenario would have been the same (except Geryon can move around more easily). So will Heironeous.Don't look at me. You're the one who thought it was a perfect cosmology.It says the ability works like Astral Spell, and that's how Astral Spell works. The only ways in which the two effects are said to differ is that a deity's silver cord can't be severed by githyanki or Astral storms. That means Heironeous must have a true body sleeping in his realm while he goes planar adventuring. When his astral projection - his avatar - dies, his true body awakens. That's what the rules say, and I know for a fact I'm not the only one who's interpreted them that way. How else would you interpret it? How many hit dice should recently-killed Heironeous have? If he has no body, how can he be damaged? Can he still use his spell-like abilities? There are no rules to cover this, which means there's either a major gap in the rules in which we could make up pretty much anything we want or we simply use the rules for Astral Spell, which is what Deities & Demigods refers us to. The latter seems the only reasonable solution to me.Deities & Demigods said over and over how hard it should be to kill a god, even for other gods. That's the reason. It wouldn't be that hard for one god to kill another if they could just teleport back to their enemy's God-re-Grower and kill them with a coup de grace attack.You're making things up again - nothing in the rules says anything that implies Heironeous can't teleport around his realm freely. As a lesser deity, Heironeous can make a soul object, but that only comes into play if he's killed in his home realm. Not Heironeous, the other gods who appear to kill Demogorgon because it's part of their portfolio to kill demons - Rao, Vishnu, Mitra, Tyr. That is, assuming Heironeous doesn't just deal with him himself. Demogorgon entering the Heavens takes the same risks as Heironeous in the Abyss; if Demogorgon can easily find Heironeous, then Rao can easily find Demogorgon. In fact, it's much more dangerous for Demogorgon, since lawful good gods are much more inclined to help one another.And, of course, it's still not entirely clear that Demogorgon can leave the planes of chaotic evil without being summoned.If they incapacitate Gruumsh. It's debatable whether they could actually do this, given orcish fecundity and the risk they put their plane in while they busy their legions with such inessential tasks. What if Hextor takes advantage of this game of orcish whack-a-mole to attack, or Demogorgon? I can see them annihilating Finland or Norway, but all the orcs? In such a way that they're not back to their old numbers in a hundred years?He actually was - Indrajit seized control of Svarga, Indra's palace, and forced Indra to be his servant there. And the adventurers are gods.Phongor's got 28 hit dice, then. Asmodeus can just barely bring him in, but he doesn't even have enough hit dice left to get an imp (2+2 HD). He rolled a four, so we'll be generous and give him a 1st level tiefling even though they technically don't exist in this edition. Phongor has a 60% chance of getting still another pit fiend or two. I'm rolling the dice now in a chatroom, and he gets one pit fiend and the chain ends. Alastor rolls to summon a pit fiend and ends up with three companions in all. So it's Hextor and whoever he has with him versus Asmodeus, Phongor, four pit fiends, Alastor the Grim, and a bewildered and completely out of his depth 1st level tiefling fighter, who doesn't get a saving throw against Hextor's Discord effect anyway but perhaps Asmodeus finds him amusing. Hextor pulls 600 skeletons and zombies that he summoned back home out of his Bag of Extra-Holding and the battle commences! Then Asmodeus threatens to teleport away laughing and things go as before.</blockquote>

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