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Fifth Edition.....Why?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7289555" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>2e originally said that it wasn't recommended, and FR Adventures came out less than a year later, so I'd consider it more of a soft cap myself.</p><p></p><p>The 3.5e DMG has 21st level+ noted as Epic levels. Although this is undoubtedly due to the Epic Level Handbook, but that had also been published a year (less than?) after the original 3e PHB/DMG. I don't have an actual 3e PHB handy right now to see what sort of wording they used, but I suspect it left the door open to a future high-level handbook. It looks like 4e was much closer to a hard cap.</p><p></p><p>Where 5e explicitly says 20th level is the top, and has a mechanic (epic boons), to finalize the point. Since both 4e and 5e are designed to provide something "new" at every level, it makes sense that they both have a limit.</p><p></p><p>But what's more important how they handle character level. Through 3.5e, it was class level that might be maxed out. For example [MENTION=6683613]TheCosmicKid[/MENTION] says that making Elminster a 20th level wizard//10th level fighter/3rd-level cleric is legal in 5e. But it's not. Character level is independent of classes now, so the maximum total level a character can be is 20th, not 33rd as in his example. However, in earlier editions it would be legal, even if there was a cap at 20th level for a given class, because class level was independent of character level.</p><p></p><p>Elminster would have to be something like a 15th level wizard\4th level fighter\1st level cleric in 5e. Not only considerably less powerful, but because of the capstone design approach, he wouldn't be among the top wizards in the Realms at all. This is a pretty big change, particularly when both Ed Greenwood and Gary Gygax have made comments in the past that indicated that part of the inclusion of high-level rules was initially intended to always be able to have NPCs/challenges of significantly higher level than the PCs. While you can accomplish that to some degree with epic boons, it would require quite a few to counter a 4 person party of 20th level characters.</p><p></p><p>Is that bad? Well, it's different. It certainly limits what you can throw at 20th level characters, but it also seems to be intentional. The idea that the PCs can become <em>the</em> most powerful beings in the land seems to be part of the driving force of this edition, but through the use of limitations rather than the BECMI approach of progressing into godhood.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7289555, member: 6778044"] 2e originally said that it wasn't recommended, and FR Adventures came out less than a year later, so I'd consider it more of a soft cap myself. The 3.5e DMG has 21st level+ noted as Epic levels. Although this is undoubtedly due to the Epic Level Handbook, but that had also been published a year (less than?) after the original 3e PHB/DMG. I don't have an actual 3e PHB handy right now to see what sort of wording they used, but I suspect it left the door open to a future high-level handbook. It looks like 4e was much closer to a hard cap. Where 5e explicitly says 20th level is the top, and has a mechanic (epic boons), to finalize the point. Since both 4e and 5e are designed to provide something "new" at every level, it makes sense that they both have a limit. But what's more important how they handle character level. Through 3.5e, it was class level that might be maxed out. For example [MENTION=6683613]TheCosmicKid[/MENTION] says that making Elminster a 20th level wizard//10th level fighter/3rd-level cleric is legal in 5e. But it's not. Character level is independent of classes now, so the maximum total level a character can be is 20th, not 33rd as in his example. However, in earlier editions it would be legal, even if there was a cap at 20th level for a given class, because class level was independent of character level. Elminster would have to be something like a 15th level wizard\4th level fighter\1st level cleric in 5e. Not only considerably less powerful, but because of the capstone design approach, he wouldn't be among the top wizards in the Realms at all. This is a pretty big change, particularly when both Ed Greenwood and Gary Gygax have made comments in the past that indicated that part of the inclusion of high-level rules was initially intended to always be able to have NPCs/challenges of significantly higher level than the PCs. While you can accomplish that to some degree with epic boons, it would require quite a few to counter a 4 person party of 20th level characters. Is that bad? Well, it's different. It certainly limits what you can throw at 20th level characters, but it also seems to be intentional. The idea that the PCs can become [I]the[/I] most powerful beings in the land seems to be part of the driving force of this edition, but through the use of limitations rather than the BECMI approach of progressing into godhood. [/QUOTE]
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