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Message: <blockquote data-quote="billd91" data-source="post: 5898235" data-attributes="member: 3400">A lot gets said about fighter saves in 1e/2e, but how many of you have really compared them? Overall, they have the best saves in the sense that they have or tie for the best saves more than any other character (the wizard, however, is very close behind him).But for the first 8 levels, the fighter's saves are among the weakest or tie for the weakest as well. So that fighter isn't really shrugging off the wizard's spells any more than anybody else for a significant chunk of his career. He makes up for it for a while because of his fast save progression (every 2 levels) and because he hits his apex sooner than any other class (17th level compared to 21st). But for the levels when most people are actually playing 1e/2e characters (the first 10 levels or so), he's more vulnerable to spells than most other characters.That doesn't mean that wizards and other spell casters are as powerful with their spells in 1e/2e as they are under the 3e save DC setting system and standard action casting times. In many ways they are not. Casting times and weapon speeds in 2e make getting off higher levels spells harder than in 3e. That limits the power a wizard can effectively bear on a regular basis. The basis of saving throw targets on the target's level/hit dice and range (all under 18 on a d20 and getting progressively easier as the target's might increases) also keeps the wizard less powerful compared to his target while in 3e his power tends to outstrip his target. Save or sit spells were a much riskier prospect in 1e/2e as far as being wasted actions than in 3e since the wizard could do very little to improve his odds of succeeding with them. In 3e, he can take feats, pump up his intelligence, cast a higher level spell, and fairly easily target a weak save that's not keeping up with the spell's level.</blockquote>

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