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<blockquote data-quote="GlassJaw" data-source="post: 7832056" data-attributes="member: 22103">Some really good stuff in this thread, and these points raise some interesting questions about 5E's design space for non-combat options. I do wonder if this is a bit of a fool's errands, largely for the things that Quickleaf pointed out.Beyond skills, there aren't a lot of design knobs that can be turned for non-combat. Giving the fighter Expertise is absolutely a quick and easy fix, and a decent one at that. But giving the fighter some additional skill bonuses continues down the path of watering down non-combat options for all the classes. If every class is getting additional skill proficiencies and bonuses, skills become more and more trivial.Also interesting that the discussion turned to issues with the rogue. Historically the rogue was my favorite class; I enjoyed being the skill monkey. But I'm not as enthused with the 5E rogue. The rogue essentially has become the mobile striker. At best, they share the skill monkey spotlight with other classes. At worst, the rogue has been significantly watered down and lost a good chunk of its identity.Maybe this speaks to a larger issue with 5E. The relative simplicity is a huge factor in its success no doubt. But with that simplicity, variation between the classes and options were sacrificed.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="GlassJaw, post: 7832056, member: 22103"] Some really good stuff in this thread, and these points raise some interesting questions about 5E's design space for non-combat options. I do wonder if this is a bit of a fool's errands, largely for the things that Quickleaf pointed out. Beyond skills, there aren't a lot of design knobs that can be turned for non-combat. Giving the fighter Expertise is absolutely a quick and easy fix, and a decent one at that. But giving the fighter some additional skill bonuses continues down the path of watering down non-combat options for all the classes. If every class is getting additional skill proficiencies and bonuses, skills become more and more trivial. Also interesting that the discussion turned to issues with the rogue. Historically the rogue was my favorite class; I enjoyed being the skill monkey. But I'm not as enthused with the 5E rogue. The rogue essentially has become the mobile striker. At best, they share the skill monkey spotlight with other classes. At worst, the rogue has been significantly watered down and lost a good chunk of its identity. Maybe this speaks to a larger issue with 5E. The relative simplicity is a huge factor in its success no doubt. But with that simplicity, variation between the classes and options were sacrificed. [/QUOTE]

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