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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5421734" data-attributes="member: 5834">Yes. History does have something to do with it. Without history, none of these games would have even been made. Where you do you think so many of these archetypes come from? History, mythology, fiction, and popular culture. It's a smorgasbord of all of it.Did you forget the various inspirations for the game? History being a major inspiration.I prefer simulationist. So it is a matter of preference. I'm happy that Pathfinder leans towards simulationist over gamist.I consider it my preference. It has nothing to do with "inherently better". I'm glad Pathfinder strays more towards simulation versus gamist philosophies. It's why I play them over 4E.Death is an aspect of the game. It should not be taken out.Using a dangerous core ability like Rage should put you at risk. Better hope your healer is good at their job.From my experience the barbarian rarely goes unconscious. He mashes things apart. He is a vicious war machine that is very hard to bring down because of all the extra healable hit points. Which are much better than temporary.I'd really like to see how often the unconscious mechanic comes into play and kills the barbarian. So far it hasn't been an issue at all in my game. The barbarian is rarely brought to lethal hit point levels and then knocked unconscious. He murders everything before that happens.DR and massive hit points are in general as good, if not better than, armor class. Chain Shirt is +4 armor versus Chainmail or BP which is +6. So +2 better. And Heavy armor is only +3 better than the best medium armor. So what are you trying to illustrate?Unless they are of course one of those players that searches around for every mechanical advantage. Which isn't much encouraged by either the game designers or in my campaign.The guys always looking to squeeze every mechanical advantage out of the game are usually very campaign specific. And more interested in mechanical manipulation than role-playing. Which isn't my cup of tea. Not why I play RPGs.Prove that rage is a weak ability. Prove it. And I don't mean prove it has  weakness like getting hit with a sleep spell while dangerously close to death, a very specific situation. And anything that can knock a barbarian down is going to outright kill a fighter, ranger, or any other class in the game. So not quite getting how the hit points are a problem.Prove that rage is generally a weak ability compared to others. Having a weakness and being weak are entirely different. The fighter has a weakness as well. Take his weapon out of his specialized weapon out of his hands and he is weaker too. The barbarian can pick up any weapon, even a tree branch, and be bashing away while raging. Rangers are weak against their non-favored enemies. Having a weakness does not make an ability weak.I know I can't prove it. The barbarian in my group rips people apart and is one of the most dangerous in my group. He's hard to kill. Does a ton of damage. And hasn't had a problem yet.If the equally geared fighter and barbarian are fighting at lvl 20, I'm not sure who I would put my money on. It would be a tough fight to say the least.Like I said, rage isn't broken. Some people want to have no chance of failure or any weakness. So they come up with some rare situation and make it seem as though that somehow makes the entire ability weak or useless. I don't see it. Don't agree with it. I like that rage stops when unconscious. Seems appropriate. And gives the barbarian a weakness that can be exploited. Just like taking a fighter's favored weapon or sending enemies that aren't favored against the ranger. Gives DMs a weakness to exploit and we need that sometimes when players are trying to min/max to the point where they have no weaknesses and do everything they can to do the most possible damage.I don't know if you realize it, but it's annoying to have players like that as a DM. Most DMs enjoy the story telling aspect of the game. When they run a game with a group of players that are mainly interested in mechanical manipulation, it makes our jobs that much harder. I know Adventure Paths  are not designed with the min/maxing in mind.So it's up to us DMs to keep that kind of stuff in line. I'm glad Paizo is helping a little bit tossing in things like unconscious barbarian boy doesn't get to have rage spasms while laying unconscious on the ground. I hate stupid things like that in a game that don't make sense.</blockquote>

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