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Fighter vs. Wizard - what's your preferred balance of power?
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<blockquote data-quote="TwinBahamut" data-source="post: 5831955" data-attributes="member: 32536"><p>I don't agree at all that imbalance is essential to the "D&D-ness" of D&D. Sure, every edition of D&D (other than 4E, which you fail to acknowledge) has has a severe imbalance between Fighters and Wizard. This is not precedent for keeping that imbalance, it is evidence for the claim that they were flawed games that need improvement. That imbalance is a problem, not something to be happy about.</p><p></p><p>It is fine to want magic to be different, but I see no good reason for deliberately favoring magic over non-magic in raw power. If you do, you destroy the basic assumption of D&D that every party member is a valuable part of a team of heroes. And i consider that assumption to be <em>far</em> more critical to the basic idea of D&D than an imbalance born from accident and bad game design.</p><p></p><p>This idea of magical temptation has no precedent in D&D. Also, mages in D&D never become too powerful for their own good. They become too powerful for the campaign's good, or even for the game's good. Basically, it is everyone other than the magic-user who suffers in an imbalanced game.</p><p></p><p>D&D doesn't posit a capstone spell called "Wish". That's just one spell, no more essential to the game than a <em>Hideous Laughter</em> spell. If anything, it is one of the most poorly designed spells in the game, that pretty much causes a total breakdown of the spell system.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure if Fighters need to stop being Fighters at high levels. They just need to be allowed to genuinely become high-level Fighters.</p><p></p><p>There are plenty of great examples of high-level warrior-type characters in the bast breadth of legend, fantasy literature, and pop culture. They range from low-level figures like Lancelot and Conan to warriors of <em>real</em> strength like the Monkey King of Chinese lore (immortality through brute force, gotta like it). People need to simply open up their realm of inspiration and stop forcing Fighters to act like low-level mooks when they are level 17. Moving mountains are rivers is not "non-fighter", it is pretty much the definition of high-level Fighters of myth and fiction. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Addressing your comments more directly, I don't think a Paragon Path or Epic Destiny system is the way to go. For one, I don't think that system worked very well in 4E, and would be happier to see it go than to see it stay. Also, trying to balance the Fighter with the Wizard through those methods won't exactly work. The Fighter will still have an underpowered set of class abilities, and the Wizard will likely be given Paragon and Epic options just as powerful as the Fighter's, meaning the Fighter doesn't really gain anything.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="TwinBahamut, post: 5831955, member: 32536"] I don't agree at all that imbalance is essential to the "D&D-ness" of D&D. Sure, every edition of D&D (other than 4E, which you fail to acknowledge) has has a severe imbalance between Fighters and Wizard. This is not precedent for keeping that imbalance, it is evidence for the claim that they were flawed games that need improvement. That imbalance is a problem, not something to be happy about. It is fine to want magic to be different, but I see no good reason for deliberately favoring magic over non-magic in raw power. If you do, you destroy the basic assumption of D&D that every party member is a valuable part of a team of heroes. And i consider that assumption to be [i]far[/i] more critical to the basic idea of D&D than an imbalance born from accident and bad game design. This idea of magical temptation has no precedent in D&D. Also, mages in D&D never become too powerful for their own good. They become too powerful for the campaign's good, or even for the game's good. Basically, it is everyone other than the magic-user who suffers in an imbalanced game. D&D doesn't posit a capstone spell called "Wish". That's just one spell, no more essential to the game than a [i]Hideous Laughter[/i] spell. If anything, it is one of the most poorly designed spells in the game, that pretty much causes a total breakdown of the spell system. I'm not sure if Fighters need to stop being Fighters at high levels. They just need to be allowed to genuinely become high-level Fighters. There are plenty of great examples of high-level warrior-type characters in the bast breadth of legend, fantasy literature, and pop culture. They range from low-level figures like Lancelot and Conan to warriors of [i]real[/i] strength like the Monkey King of Chinese lore (immortality through brute force, gotta like it). People need to simply open up their realm of inspiration and stop forcing Fighters to act like low-level mooks when they are level 17. Moving mountains are rivers is not "non-fighter", it is pretty much the definition of high-level Fighters of myth and fiction. :) Addressing your comments more directly, I don't think a Paragon Path or Epic Destiny system is the way to go. For one, I don't think that system worked very well in 4E, and would be happier to see it go than to see it stay. Also, trying to balance the Fighter with the Wizard through those methods won't exactly work. The Fighter will still have an underpowered set of class abilities, and the Wizard will likely be given Paragon and Epic options just as powerful as the Fighter's, meaning the Fighter doesn't really gain anything. [/QUOTE]
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