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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6489947" data-attributes="member: 87792">Also in most situations you don't need much of either. Levitate sprang to mind to me again because I'm a warlock fan; warlocks can at will levitate as a level 9 invocation.Generally, yes in my experience.It's also half from the shield. Your off-hand is really useful, whether to wield a two handed weapon or bow, or to wield a second melee weapon, or to wield a shield. Unless you're carrying a bastard sword with a shield on your back (or two entire weapon sets) you've  just given up a lot of damage for that extra +2AC. Is it worth it against low level enemies? Yes.  But a fairer comparison would be only an AC of 18 (plate, no shield).Generally both are really useful - but Will edges out Con because both can cripple and kill you, but only Will can force you to attack your own party; the consequences are that much worse.There is that.Doh!Your point is taken but that doesn't invalidate the ability - versatility is important, especially at higher levels. Also, all your maneuvers get stronger as you level up so there is a reward for continuing to advance in the subclass. Finally, gaining Extra Attacks means that you can pull off "combos" that you couldn't before (trip, then menace, then push) - so the ability does subtly scale with level even when it's not obvious.Oh, it's useful information. It's just a niche ability. Most of the people we kill are ones who we haven't spent that long talking to. But it might be a piece of genius game design to encourage pre-battle conversations, boasts, or taunts (I'm reminded of a 3.X rogue who got the villain talking long enough to run out almost all their buff spells before the inevitable fight).I'm fairly sure they can just create one.Isn't there a capstone Ranger spell to do that? Endless Quiver or something? Because the Bard can steal Ranger and Paladin capstone spells from memory at level 10 despite the fact the classes they are intended for can't use them until very high level.That's what illusions are for?You shatter anything without AoEs, and don't have to dump all your spells into skeletons.  Even a dozen are distinctly worrying (especially for Necromancers).They were hyperbole for all the reasons you state <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> The 5e fighter stands somewhere between the 3e and 4e fighters in terms of out of combat capability and nearer the latter. I would point out that what you try to do generally gets harder as you level up - and the only skills in 3.X that officially got harder were opposed ones like Bluff and Hide.*grumbles about former DM - who had my low level Warlock a couple of times attempt DC 25 (he even passed one of them, convincing the Kobolds that the illusionary giant black pudding (tall enough to block their LoS to us) we'd just fired arrows through had in fact eaten the kobolds we'd killed)*Heavy armour... It was easier for a 4e fighter than a 5e one.Human, two multiclass feats into Rogue (one also granting 1/encounter Sneak Attack).On the other hand the new spells they do get are better than any previous spells they had. Also you underrate the Warlock - they get access to new and better invocations (Alter Self At Will for at will shapeshifting as opposed o at will illusionary shapeshifting is really nice). True Polymorph (Adult Red Dragon) is seriously good. And there's other good stuff in there.There's a split here between casters and non-casters. It's not 3.X level but is there.There's a reason I really like Rogues and Warlocks in 5e and consider Bards a little OTT <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />And I maintain it's a very good class at low level that caps out early and loses a lot of ground later.And thank you <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />*Please note the use of excessive hyperbole in my writing style in this thread. I do actually think that other classes in 5E have significant strengths and the Fighter has significant weaknesses; talking this way is just more fun.</blockquote>[/QUOTE]

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