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Message: <blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 1261536" data-attributes="member: 5171">Certainly.  What I was babbling about was the fact that the evidence you're presenting as a solid argument that fighters needed a lot of fixing was not, in fact, solid evidence that fighters needed a lot of fixing.I assumed, and herein may lie my error, that your definition of "no problems" was synonymous with "no complaints from players, no complaints from me".  Since players rarely complain about their characters getting MORE powerful, or even the characters of their friends (provided that said friend does not negate any need for their own character as a result), I don't see that "the players didn't complain when I added a great deal of power" is evidence for "the fighter was severely in need of fixing".I'm really not sure what you're babbling about here.  Could you explain it in another way?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />You keep trying to say "the fighter is underpowered", but it keeps coming out sounding like "I run a game that is unbalanced in such a way that the advantages of the fighter are not fully realized".The thing about fighting feats, in my utterly subjective opinion, is that by and large, once you get past the few big cool ones, you end up with a lot of stuff that might be good but is not flashy.  If you gave a fighter thirty-six feats at first level, with the caveat that every one of those feats had to be a skill-booster (Skill Focus, Alertness, Stealthy, etc.), he'd certainly be a ton more powerful, but he wouldn't necessarily be any flashier.  As a result, his overpoweredness wouldn't be rubbed in the faces of the other players, and it is unlikely that players would complain about the extra thirty-six feats that the fighter was getting.Does that mean that adding thirty-six feats to the fighter's class abilities as a first-level feature will not overpower the class?What about giving the fighter 2d10 hit points per level instead of 1d10?  Many players will never notice.  The fighter will just need healing a bit less often.  It's hardly a "flashy" ability.  Unless the player makes a big deal of it ("Oh, no, I'm down to 179 of my 213 hit points!"), the other players will likely just think "Good, one person fewer to heal."  Does that mean that adding an extra d10 hit die to each fighter level is a great idea?  By your logic, it seems that we'll be seeing a lot of 2d10 HD first-level fighters with 36 extra feats.The issue here is perceived power compared to actual power.  In actual power, fighters are excellent.  In perceived power, they stink, because their abilities are not cool or flashy.  The player has to do all the work of making a fighter seem cool, whereas even a pretty lazy player can make a dude who flings balls of exploding fire seem pretty neat -- exploding fireballs are flashy. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />There's the old rule about not giving crunchy bonuses for fluffy penalties -- no combat buffs in exchange for roleplaying drawbacks, and so forth.  My opinion is that you are confusing the fighter's lack of flair for a genuine lack of power, and are giving him more power to compensate.  The result will be a more powerful fighter who is still, in all likelihood, fairly dull -- but your players will be happy because they got a few free feats out of you.Your mileage may vary, and no offense is intended -- except for the babbling bit.  I'm firing back on the babbling bit. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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