Fighters, Barbarians, and Exotic Weapons

[comrade raoul]

Would it be balanced to allow fighters and barbarians to trade their starting armor proficiencies for exotic weapon proficiencies? It seems to me that some fighters and barbarians train less with armor but focus more on mastering a broad array of weapons. Your fighter might be a lightly-armored street combatant proficient with the kukri and the hand crossbow (all the better to conceal); your half-orcish barbarian could eschew restrictive armor (which he deems cowardly) but wield his people's traditional double axe with pride and skill. The rules, in detail, would go as follows.

• Fighters and barbarians may opt to exchange their initial armor proficiencies for exotic weapon proficiencies.
• A fighter may trade heavy armor proficiency for one exotic weapon proficiency; both heavy and medium armor proficiency for two exotic weapon proficiencies, and all armor proficiency for three exotic weapon proficiencies. Fighters may trade armor proficiencies to become proficient with any exotic weapon they choose, though DMs have the final say as to which weapons exist in the character's setting.
• A barbarian may trade medium armor proficiency for one exotic weapon proficiency and all armor proficiency for two exotic weapon proficiencies. Barbarians can only become proficient with weapons that would be available to their culture. The exact list varies (it's up to the DM), but typically includes the following: blowgun, dire club*, kukri, orc double axe, two-bladed sword. Some barbarian groups (usually, those with more contact to civilization) also use the bastard sword, dwarven waraxe, and executioner sword*. Generally, if an exotic weapon is sophisticated, subtle, or complex (like the spiked chain or repeating crossbow), barbarian characters should not be able to become proficient with it in this way.
• A character may only make this trade as a first-level character (at character creation), when he begins his career as a fighter or barbarian.
• Finally, if the character later advances in another class that provides armor proficiency as a class ability, he does not regain proficiency with the armor he traded. The only way for a character to regain his armor proficiency is by spending a feat. For example, if Tordek gave up proficiency with heavy armor in order to begin play proficient with the musket*, and then takes a level as a cleric, he does not gain proficiency in heavy armor (even though the cleric class normally provides that proficiency as a class ability).

Thoughts?

* The weapon below is a new exotic weapon that I've previously discussed in this forum, in this thread.

 

[Crothian]

It's not a bad idea, but one has to realize that the most powerful weapons are exotic weapons. Also, one needs to be careful for players exchanging nothing for something. A fighter that has no intention of ever using meium or heavy armor, that then gets Bastard sword and spiked chain makes out very well.

 

[Shirt Guy John]

I love it!

I was gonna do something similar with martial weapons and exotic weapons (but only culturally accepted/regional ones) for the wilderness fighters (Ranger and barbarian). It seemed more acurate for those characters in some of my regions to have proficiency with the Claw and Talon than with the Long and Short swords.

Coolness. Sounds like fun-tasticness to me, Raoul.

 

[Isida Kep'Tukari]

Well, here's a thought. You can only wear one suit of armor at a time, but you can weild many weapons during the course of a fight.

If I decide, as a fighter, that I'm only going to wear heavy armor, why not dump those useless medium and light armor proficiencies for proficiencies in a couple interesting weapons?

It is a neat idea in principle, but be cautious about abuse.

 

[comrade raoul]

Ray: Am I right by interpreting you to be saying that these rules benefit heavy-armored fighters because they can drop "weaker" armor proficiencies that they wouldn't use anyway, in order to be proficient with exotic weapons? If you read carefully, I've dealt with that issue already. The second and third bullets are pretty clear about this: you don't get to choose which armor proficiency you trade, but always trade the heaviest armor proficiency you have for each new EWP. So fighters always start by giving up heavy armor.

Crothian: You raise a deeper and more complex point: these rules do, in fact, tend to benefit "light fighters" -- those who don't plan on wearing medium or heavy armor in the first place. There are a few things to note about that, though. First, exotic weapon proficiencies can be better than martial weapons, but probably aren't that big a boost -- further, the marginal utility of multiple exotic weapon proficiences decreases, since you can usually only use one weapon at a time and usually only focus on one weapon without paying a lot of feats. Second, I think the "light fighter," as described in the PHB, is probably weaker than the "heavy fighter," especially if the player has soom room to distribute ability scores. The extra dexterity you need to compensate for the reduced armor gives you a better Reflex save and Initiative, but it also reaaly cuts into your strength and constitution, reducing your hit points and damage rolls (both crucial for fighters) as well as attack rolls (if you don't use Weapon Finesse).

 

[Crothian]

Crothian: You raise a deeper and more complex point: these rules do, in fact, tend to benefit "light fighters" -- those who don't plan on wearing medium or heavy armor in the first place. There are a few things to note about that, though. First, exotic weapon proficiencies can be better than martial weapons, but probably aren't that big a boost -- further, the marginal utility of multiple exotic weapon proficiences decreases, since you can usually only use one weapon at a time and usually only focus on one weapon without paying a lot of feats. Second, I think the "light fighter," as described in the PHB, is probably weaker than the "heavy fighter," especially if the player has soom room to distribute ability scores. The extra dexterity you need to compensate for the reduced armor gives you a better Reflex save and Initiative, but it also reaaly cuts into your strength and constitution, reducing your hit points and damage rolls (both crucial for fighters) as well as attack rolls (if you don't use Weapon Finesse).

There is give an take within the system. I'm not saying this is a bad idea, I just think that one needs to be careful with it. I really like it from a flavor point of view. I have a Ranger and if we were using this rule I'd have dumped medium armor for a EWP Kurkri becasue of it's wilderness use. But then you'll have those elves who dump medium and heavy armor for an elven thinblade knowing that they will have a dex of 20 so they'd never wear any armor other then light.

So, I'm just throwing up the caution flag. It's up to the DM to know his campaign and his players and to best judge if this will help or hinder the game. I do think it is a good option.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It wouldn't be perfectly balanced. Armor Feats are defensive in nature, and, well, you can't switch from using one armor feat to using a different one very often (and probably will never want to, anyway, if your DEX is good), they let you keep a decent AC if your DEX isn't super-high and/or when you're flat-footed. That's useful, but, really, pretty ordinary stuff. EWP, OTOH, can get you the use of a pretty special weapon - like a spiked chain, double-weapon, or whatever.

It'd be more balanced to trade-in armor feats for less potent, basicly defensive feats, like Expertise or Dodge.

OTOH, if it's just to fit concept, and the EWP in question is merely exotic, rather than exceptionally powerful, it's probably fine. So, if you have the swashbuckler giving up his heavy armor proficiency and taking EWP: Whip, you're probably OK. If you have the 18 DEX fighter with Combat Reflexes 'giving up' heavy armor to get EWP: spiked chain, you're letting him get away with something.

 

[Masked]

I wouldn't let them drop anything but the "heaviest" slot. My logic is the class ability is a duplication of a feat chain. You can't have hvy w/o med and you can't have med w/o light.

Other than that, though, technically ... because we're talking about two separate feats: ex weap vs. armor prof ... it should be balanced.

-Masked

 

[CRGreathouse]

Other than that, though, technically ... because we're talking about two separate feats: ex weap vs. armor prof ... it should be balanced.

That's flawed logic. What about trading MWP (throwing axe) and MWP (greatclub) for Power Attack and Cleave?

*****

Truth be told, many fighters don't wear medium or heavy armor at all, for better movement and max Dex cap. What's more, this system would make multiclassing quite powerful - Bbn1/FtrX is good now, but what about Bbn1 (drop MAP for EWP)/FtrX?

It's way too open to abuse. I'm sure there are other examples of what could be done with it, especially with the S&F exotic weapons.

 

[CRGreathouse]

It'd be more balanced to trade-in armor feats for less potent, basicly defensive feats, like Expertise or Dodge.

The 'weaker' feats are powerful, though, in that they allow better feats or prestige classes. The ones you listed are both required for Whirlwind Attack, the much-maligned Toughness for the Dwarven Defender prestige class, and Skill Focus for many others.

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