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<blockquote data-quote="broghammerj" data-source="post: 4716576" data-attributes="member: 1869">I'll give you a few concrete examples.We were around 15th level.&nbsp; The plan was to scout out a castle prior to an assault the next day.&nbsp; The wizard is far better at this.&nbsp; He can cast invisibility, silence 15 ft radius, and fly to get over the wall.&nbsp; Alternatively he could cast change self and appear as guard, charm person to win over the real guards, and use knock to open the locked doors.&nbsp; At any sign of trouble he could simply teleport out of the castle if detected.&nbsp; There are probably many different variation of infiltration tactics due to the variety of spells.The rogue on the other hand has to move silently, hide in shadows, and pick a lock to get in.&nbsp; All of these have a chance of failure while the wizards spells are virtually automatic successes.&nbsp; If the thief is detected then he is hosed as he has no other way out but to fight.Most of the time the wizard CAN BE a better commando type character.&nbsp; This never really happened for a few reasons:1. The wizard player wasn't an a-hole and knew scouting was the thief player's gig and chose not to step into his role.2. The wizard thought his role was battlefield control and damage which he chose to memorize for spells......The wizard didn't wake up every morning and say, &quot;I need to memorize knock, invisibility, silence, charm person, teleport because I may have to do some scouting today.&quot;3. This scenario also assumes the rogue does not have items such as a scroll of teleport, a ring of invisibility, etc. which I assume a high level character is likely to have.&nbsp; The rogue right out of the PHB lbs for lbs is a weaker character than the wizard.&nbsp; Everyone forgets there is the DMG which has suggested wealth levels and items by level.Another example you talk about is the missing cleric.&nbsp; Battling the BBEG without the cleric was&nbsp; problem.&nbsp; If the 160 HP fighter gets torched by a spell, beaten down by high damaging physical attacks, and then assaulted by swarms of minions....he is in trouble.&nbsp; There is no way to heal that much damage quickly without a cleric.To work around this the DM made healing potions, scrolls, and wands available to the other players.&nbsp; This prevented the game from being canceled if the cleric didn't show up (which is ridiculous in my opinion).&nbsp; Did that over shadow the other characters abilities...no.&nbsp; It did represent that the cleric was an essential part of the team just like everyone else.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="broghammerj, post: 4716576, member: 1869"] I'll give you a few concrete examples. We were around 15th level. The plan was to scout out a castle prior to an assault the next day. The wizard is far better at this. He can cast invisibility, silence 15 ft radius, and fly to get over the wall. Alternatively he could cast change self and appear as guard, charm person to win over the real guards, and use knock to open the locked doors. At any sign of trouble he could simply teleport out of the castle if detected. There are probably many different variation of infiltration tactics due to the variety of spells. The rogue on the other hand has to move silently, hide in shadows, and pick a lock to get in. All of these have a chance of failure while the wizards spells are virtually automatic successes. If the thief is detected then he is hosed as he has no other way out but to fight. Most of the time the wizard [B][U]CAN BE[/U][/B] a better commando type character. This never really happened for a few reasons: 1. The wizard player wasn't an a-hole and knew scouting was the thief player's gig and chose not to step into his role. 2. The wizard thought his role was battlefield control and damage which he chose to memorize for spells......The wizard didn't wake up every morning and say, "I need to memorize knock, invisibility, silence, charm person, teleport because I may have to do some scouting today." 3. This scenario also assumes the rogue does not have items such as a scroll of teleport, a ring of invisibility, etc. which I assume a high level character is likely to have. The rogue right out of the PHB lbs for lbs is a weaker character than the wizard. Everyone forgets there is the DMG which has suggested wealth levels and items by level. Another example you talk about is the missing cleric. Battling the BBEG without the cleric was problem. If the 160 HP fighter gets torched by a spell, beaten down by high damaging physical attacks, and then assaulted by swarms of minions....he is in trouble. There is no way to heal that much damage quickly without a cleric. To work around this the DM made healing potions, scrolls, and wands available to the other players. This prevented the game from being canceled if the cleric didn't show up (which is ridiculous in my opinion). Did that over shadow the other characters abilities...no. It did represent that the cleric was an essential part of the team just like everyone else. [/QUOTE]

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