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<blockquote data-quote="Jefe Bergenstein" data-source="post: 4716846" data-attributes="member: 31506">Given that the OP's mind seemed made up, no one specific anecdote would sway him. There's little point in going over individual cases where its instantly countered with &quot;we dont do that in my game&quot;.&nbsp;How's this. &nbsp;High level highters are obsolete in my games. I have a fighter who typically cant hit anything or overcome its DR and gets essentially clobbered the moment he stands in place to face a full attack on a monster. He enjoys using improvised weapons from objects in the room, wearing no because it shows off his wardrobe, and has a low strength, dexterity and constitution due to his advanced age and injuries. Prove that fighters are a viable class to me. &nbsp;Oh, its a problem with the build? The way the character is played? &nbsp;Welcome to how stunned I am when someone mentions that not only are high level caster NOT the driving force in their games, but that they also dont see how its possible. I'd be equally confused if someone said their bard did poorly in social situations. Given the enormous toolset at their disposal, if a wizard in the teens is not rocking out, I'm inclined to say the fault lies with the user. Given their weak out of combat character based options, if&nbsp; fighter in your group isnt marginalized by casters, I dont know what else to say.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jefe Bergenstein, post: 4716846, member: 31506"] Given that the OP's mind seemed made up, no one specific anecdote would sway him. There's little point in going over individual cases where its instantly countered with "we dont do that in my game". How's this. High level highters are obsolete in my games. I have a fighter who typically cant hit anything or overcome its DR and gets essentially clobbered the moment he stands in place to face a full attack on a monster. He enjoys using improvised weapons from objects in the room, wearing no because it shows off his wardrobe, and has a low strength, dexterity and constitution due to his advanced age and injuries. Prove that fighters are a viable class to me. Oh, its a problem with the build? The way the character is played? Welcome to how stunned I am when someone mentions that not only are high level caster NOT the driving force in their games, but that they also dont see how its possible. I'd be equally confused if someone said their bard did poorly in social situations. Given the enormous toolset at their disposal, if a wizard in the teens is not rocking out, I'm inclined to say the fault lies with the user. Given their weak out of combat character based options, if fighter in your group isnt marginalized by casters, I dont know what else to say. [/QUOTE]

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