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<blockquote data-quote="pawsplay" data-source="post: 4717141" data-attributes="member: 15538">Undead hit dice are crappy. There is no way the gray render comes close to a fighter in terms of fighting ability. Plus, feats, right? Fighters have them, gray renders don't. Zombies are stupid... in the world I would like to live in, fighters are capable of tactical decision making, even artists. Rather than making the fighter redundant, the wizard has duplicated part of the fighter's job (absorb damage, hit hard), enhancing the fighter's ability to melee by relieving him of doorstop duty and allowing him to choose when and how to use himself as a living shield. If a cleric summons a fire elemental, I'm not going to suddenly claim the wizard is redundant and should go home because elemental damage dealing is covered. It's true, fighters suck at logistics. But they are good at so many things when it comes to combat. A fighter can reasonably be expected to deal top end damage in melee, perform adequately as a ranged combatant, absorb tons of hit point damage, and shrug off negative levels... all in one build. And you lose very little fighter-ness if you want to add a single level of anything else. Take a single level of Cleric with the Magic domain, and suddenly, you can use most magic items. Rogues? At the levels at which their lockpicking and trap disarming abilities are becoming less relevant because of the vast availability of magic, rogues can develop an extremely respectable Use Magic Device ability, letting them double up virtually any casting roll you like. Rogues can, in fact, create their own zombie gray renders, if they felt the need for such a thing.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pawsplay, post: 4717141, member: 15538"] Undead hit dice are crappy. There is no way the gray render comes close to a fighter in terms of fighting ability. Plus, feats, right? Fighters have them, gray renders don't. Zombies are stupid... in the world I would like to live in, fighters are capable of tactical decision making, even artists. Rather than making the fighter redundant, the wizard has duplicated part of the fighter's job (absorb damage, hit hard), enhancing the fighter's ability to melee by relieving him of doorstop duty and allowing him to choose when and how to use himself as a living shield. If a cleric summons a fire elemental, I'm not going to suddenly claim the wizard is redundant and should go home because elemental damage dealing is covered. It's true, fighters suck at logistics. But they are good at so many things when it comes to combat. A fighter can reasonably be expected to deal top end damage in melee, perform adequately as a ranged combatant, absorb tons of hit point damage, and shrug off negative levels... all in one build. And you lose very little fighter-ness if you want to add a single level of anything else. Take a single level of Cleric with the Magic domain, and suddenly, you can use most magic items. Rogues? At the levels at which their lockpicking and trap disarming abilities are becoming less relevant because of the vast availability of magic, rogues can develop an extremely respectable Use Magic Device ability, letting them double up virtually any casting roll you like. Rogues can, in fact, create their own zombie gray renders, if they felt the need for such a thing. [/QUOTE]

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