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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gunpowder" data-source="post: 4720660" data-attributes="member: 57702">Edit: Curse you Runestar for ninjaing me on the fighter combat maneuver and doing them better.The problem I see it stems from what I call "Uncle's Law"If you have seen Jackie Chan Adventures you know the character Uncle and one of his favorite quotes."Jackieeeee, Magic must defeat magic"and that's the root of the problem. Magic is the sole mover and shaker of 3x. If you want to be big and bad you need to be able to cast magic or have the gold to spend on items to duplicate those spells. Ancient dragons aren't scary because they are ancient incarnations of the elements, its because they are 14 level sorcerers with lots of melee attacks. A warlord bent on world domination will get ganked while he is on the can if he doesn't have anti-scrying spells. A 20th level wizard is a power comparable to entire armies. A 20th level fighter, is a guy who makes 6 attacks a round but fortunetely has a lot of gold to spend on magic items to duplicate some of the abilites the wizard has innately. A fighter buffed to the gills is truely a power house, but that's because he's buffed to the gills. The same effect could have been achieved by buffing a NPC warrior or the druid's ape. Hell you may be able to do better buffing the ape since they have a natural 10 ft reach (don't need to waste a slot on enlarge person). Seriously, if a fighter is shining in an encounter, its due to one of two things.1. Lots of spells/gold has been poured into him and the ass kicking is the sum result of the spellcastor's efforts. or2. Everyone else has been handicapped so badly, that they are brought down to the fighters level (anti-magic zone, creature immunties etc)One more thingPawsplayFighters are complex because you need to know ahead of time which feats you need to take with the bonus feats before you multi-class/prestige class into an a class that has actual abilites.what special combat manuevers?Trip is good. In fact, the spike chained trip spammer is the only fighter build capable of any sort of control. Control that starts failing as soon as the enemies start: flying(with spells, creatures with wings can be tripped), being bigger(unless the fighter gets enlarge person on him which cancels the benefit of being large, but falls behind against huge and up), stronger ( bull's strength can only go so far) or has more legs.Bull rushing: yeah for giving up damage so a small push effect that hits the same road blocks as trip (bigger, stronger, immunties)Disarm: Most higher CR monsters dont use weapons unless you are appling class levels to humanoids, which works unless they are a spell castor then they don't care.Grapple: Once again creatures bigger, stronger than you want to grapple you and unless you jump around getting: feats, perstige classes and magic to boost your grapple modifier you are getting owned. Also freedom of movement counters grapple automatically. Have a +100 to grapple. I don't care, with FOM I walk out automatically.  Interposing:huzzah I get to be a speed bump. and if i sacrifice my standard action I can ready an action to move when the bad guy moves, and then they use their reach to punch the wizard in the face any ways.Clerics need one spell to equal fighters: Divine power. Nets you fighter BAB. the +6 to strength, and temporary hit points are just gravy. That's not even including level one spell divine favor(bonus to hit that stacks with everything else) or righteous fury (its enlarge person on high octane crack)Sure you have some fewer feats but all you need is power attack to mix it up in melee. And if somehow that's not cutting it in melee. CONGRATS you are still a primary castor so five foot step and blast away. One other thinglichesWands are just spell batteries. The lich would prefer a disarm than getting PA'ed in the face for 2d6+100 (Lich: man I hope he rolls low). PoisonHigh fort saves can still fail. Neutrailze poison works 100% or delay poison makes poison a none-issue for the fight as least. Imps Hope he has good aligned arrows. He can't power attack to get through the DR. Maybe he has enough pluses on the bow to counter that though. MedusaI assume you say this because, fighters can pick up blind-fight right? Well anyone can do that as well, its not fighter specific. Just cast spells that dont require attack roles, evard's should work well, or that blocks line of sight. solid fog+stinking/acid cloud. In conclusion,Fighters are a verstile class because you don't lose anything by multiclass/presitge class out of it. You dip in for two levels(maybe 4 for weapon spec) for the feats, then get a class with actual abilites.</blockquote>

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