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Message: <blockquote data-quote="dnddays" data-source="post: 4722173" data-attributes="member: 79258">Round 1 -- Fight!It's true that fighters didn't really matter after 11th level, certainly by 18th.  And depending on the edition, rogues (thieves) didn't either.There was the classic 1st edition combat start: harm + magic missile.  Or, the occasional change of pace: maze + blade barrier + prismatic wall + bigby's crushing hand + mordenkainen's sword or Power Word: Kill/Holy Word/Creeping Doom.That didn't change much in 2nd edition, but in 3rd edition it became all about polymorph self and righteous might and whatnot.  By mid-level, having a wizard start the battle with polymorph self into a 10HD Hyrda (10 attacks per turn at 1d10 damage) or something and easily outpace the damage output of our melee guys was really annoying.  And look out when players gain access to quickened empowered maximized twin sonic-substitution fireballs or epic level nonsense (crown of vermin anyone?).Having been a frequent reader and contibuter to the Wizard's Character Optimization Board and witnessing the horrors of builds like 'Pun Pun', I don't see how anyone can argue that fighters or other non-spell casters weren't all but worthless beyond a certain point.  Sure, as a DM, I can constantly put your party in magic dead areas or have you fight an inordinate amount of magic-immune or magic-resistant creatures.  But at what point does it become akin to a 4-H Participation Ribbon?  At what point does trying to 'include' the melee guys became patronizing?  As DM, I shouldn't have to rearrange my adventure's premise and story to correct an inherent and critical flaw in the D&D game.A man walks into a doctors office and says: "Doc, it hurts when I do this?"  The doctor responds: "Then don't do that."I shouldn't have to rob Peter of his abilities to make things fun for Paul.  Not to say I didn't do that back in the day.  I did.  But it's not my job as the DM to repair the game's foundation, it's the job of the game designers.  Which is why I think 4e is a vast improvement over the old design.  It may not be perfect, but no one has cast a quickened maximized fireball followed by a polymorph self into a Hydra for ten attacks yet.</blockquote>

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