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Message: <blockquote data-quote="insanogeddon" data-source="post: 4722959" data-attributes="member: 82822">HoHumCouple things make little sense to me... I cannot understand how people claim that fighters are unthreatening dunces only good as meat shields YET also hold they have little ability at damaging/changing outcomes.   As its pretty easy to get to casters (fly/teleport/run/tumble or 20 othe ways and items).  I actually love both casters and warriors but one never is so much better as oft claimed but never proven in front of a fair DM. Surely either they:ARE good at changing out comes and thus are targeted fulfilling their apparently sponge/meat shield only role.Or (as people claim) they Aren’t good at changing out comes and thus are never targeted and ignored making them horrible sponge/meat shields better replaced by a bard with a blowgun. Or the DM is being v.v.v nice and playing self-loathing enemies. If the infantry are mere slow/unmanuverable/poor damage etc etc they serve NO protection for artillery, it’s a no brainer. So if your experiences are that fighters are sluggish, un-manuverable, combat unchanging nobodies.. yet their still attacked over the ‘mega power casters’ that surely indicates favouritism and your in a pretty easy/caster friendly/biased world.  A system fixing this with handcuffs like 4ed. does not indicate a system problem so much as a way its played problem.  Each have their perks.  Personally I am utterly against innately balanced systems where wit/strategy/cause and effect are not required.  If I wanted to play such a balanced game I would get 2 dice, a cup (to balance), a friend and sit in a 5x5 room rolling, highest roll wins.  Not really what I look for in a hobby really, I have better ways to waste time.  Tho seriously even dice if you have to YELL out what happens it can be entertaining e.g: roll a 8 and yell I use my super meggazord defenestrating strike, friend rolls a 10 YELLS I use my sonic beta blocker and channel your power into my emancipating strike decombobulating your jubbilys etc  add the brews and I recon you have yourself a game more balanced, fun and role playing conducive than most. ROLE playing isn’t about rolling, nor balance, supprisingly to some it isn’t about ROLES either.  That’s why 3.5 is still kicking despite its vile horrendous mistakes. Warriors (including rogues) always could flex within their role to other areas when casters are linear tracked trains relying on spells to flex, when casters are making all those scrolls, and fonts, and items warriors can spend that time among the people helping, making friends unless the DM jibs them.  Warriors can dip or get enogh feats that you can cover all avanues (I always like having a 14 wis and ‘zen shot’ to cover the low dex on str builds and the will save with ‘iron will’ or now with PH 2, endurance and ‘steadfast determination’ for con to will saves. Granted a wizard COULD, just like a lawyer COULD spend 3 weeks in a bar and be mates with everyone and get perks but they have better things to do, and a focus they have to stick to to win their little race that warriors often upset with actual wit and inventive suprise head clubbings.  Just cause a cleric ‘could’ take blind fighting is moot unless he takes its irrelevant.  Also there is no substitute to political power for TIME spent being activising... rogues and warriors have this time.  High level while 30 days are spent adding to spell books and making scrolls that’s 30 days more political power a fighter can get.  I don’t care if your chr is 10 and you have diplomacy +1 as we all know once you have friends these things don’t matter.. and that is the core of support and strength non-casters can build far better than casters.  Ignore the extra time and you may as well ignore the ability of casters to make scrolls. Further because warriors solutions to problems aren’t as linear as ‘I cast a1 for a, b1 for b, c1 for c’ etc they get to use their mind, experiment, struggle, outwit, grow, invent solutions and that is often what real fun in games comes down to, little moments of being a smarty pants, and spell a1 for problem a is just a illusory version of REALLY dealing with a problem with quick wit and earning the victory, building value and not being easily replaced by a simplistic computer program that can play a wizard better than most players could hope. If you ignore that you can ready to 5ft step and attack or think that some delayed fireballs bothers a no doubt fire resistant 2-300 HP warrior, or summoned monsters can be made to grapple against all instinct despite the rules etc then yes casters rule at high level.  But that’s the same as having a caster with no components in a silent antimagic zone in a tornado balanced on his head! I have never played the newest star wars edition.  The old one I have many a time.  Jedi attract trouble.  It’s a story oriented game.  If your want tho and are poxed by unfeeling jedi they go down.  If your playing a unimaginative, uncreative game fighting on a baseball diamond martial arts and grappling builds still mow them down, the 2 gun munchkins can as well.  If your playing a story base: politicians can pay to get things done (including said grappling kneck crackers) never mind the techies with wit (all the force nuking powers in the world won’t save the lille jedi whos ship says it has oxygen and doesn’t, whose engines blow, whose seals erode, whose warp jump gets them cannoned into a gravity well etc etc   Even by cannon few really went the jedi straight on, just like freedom fighters/terrorists don’t take the military head on.  Why would one play any different unless your suicidal and in that case having a stomach full of explosives never hurts for when the jedi cuts you down.)   As with wonderful fantasy stories (like v in oots) realistically a lot of the amazing magic co-inky-dinks ain’t happening and if it does the narrator/dm etc etc is cutting you some SERIOUS breaks (I am against giving comic examples of my point but to follow suit: in oots belkars little effort as the “sexy shoeless god of war” no.610 to 611. could have easily had a dragon added to the mix to be ganked, and he had no level bumping/know all spells/buoyed by 3 planes of evil shenanigans going.  Even in 617 celia a mere air sprite looks to be epicly able if the story fits).  Same goes for the pun/pun mention... SERIOUS CHEESE, look on the boards and the real danger is the chargers/master throwers/hulking hurlers as they don’t rely on unusual books/accepted settings and could be slipped past a DM....  What further baffles me is its often the same people saying “fighters are worthless and needless” that also argue in other areas “Book of 9 swords” classes are balanced and NOT severe power creep...... Dubious at best to hold views that conflict.  Which one is it? Its like those that believe in feng shu/chi/ki/shakras/spirit/auras/spirit guides/energy flow etc etc (not that I am judging those beliefs in the slightest).  My bafflement and amusement comes form when those that hold said beliefs tend to have a whole bunch of traditional tattoos and a bucket load of piercings as if shoving foreign OR/and man made stuff thru your body or under your skin wouldn’t throw of the ‘natural balanced holistic energies’ something cronic, never mind I doubt spirits would be cool with stealing their traditional family markings tied to their souls/ancestors/gods and popping ink under the skin so the plagiarised designs appear... they would probably view it as heresy/abomination to be punished. I have always got the no tatt/piercing spiritual types and the pierced/tatted/abomination nihilistic no spirit types but the combo....  bemusing!   PS:  As for ‘magic jar’ it “You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures.”  To go to and from the jar once your in... often overlooked and nasty with walls/dispel etc etc as my Ecclectic Learning (and choose necro spells PH2) War Mage/Pale Master found out.  </blockquote>

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