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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gimby" data-source="post: 4722998" data-attributes="member: 49875">This confusion seems to be a theme here, but it seems pretty clear that the position people are holding is that they are unthreatening dunces only good as meat sheilds *because* they have little ability at changing outcomes.  *And* that they aren't actually very good at this role.  I can't see how this is inconsistent.Never? Strong word.  I've played under some very fair DMs and consistently seen this issue.  In addition to that - fly? Caster dependant.  Teleport? Caster dependant.  From items? Who made those items? Casters.Or are simply not as good at their role as another class could be.  They can make reasonable meat shields/damage sources - I don't think anyone is arguing against this.  The issue is that they are less effective at this than other classes (or class features, in degenerate cases) are and at sufficiently high level the whole "meat shield" role becomes irrelevant.Or that the fighters are doing their best to act as tank and failing, or the DM is allowing the fighter to shine by focussing on what strengths they do have.  Note what you are describing is a *fighter* friendly world (from the players point of view) - its easy enough to build opponents that can ignore the fighter pretty much entirely.Then you have failed to understand what a balanced system consists of.  Ideally, it means that you are forced to use wits and strategy to defeat your opponents rather than just pressing your "I Win" button over and over again.  I really have no idea what you are getting at here?  That balance somehow inhibits roleplay? Go google WUSHU.  Thats a (by definition) perfectly balanced system.  Indeed, its a fine game.  Uh, no.  Thats all a) massively campaign dependant and b) not somthing that rogues or fighters are particularly good at.  Making friends? Gathering information? Meet Charm Person and Scry.  And Augury.  And everything along those lines.  What you are talking about can be done by *any* characters - just the casters can be better at it.  Oh, and they have the *option* of making items instead if they feel like it.  Like if you are in the wilderness and have no-one to talk to.   So, having spells makes you unable to solve problems in an inventive manner? Being a wizard (the archetypical high Int class) makes you less creative than than a fighter (the archtypical low Int class)?  I mean, sure - for some problems you just throw a spell at it and brute force the issue, but you are capable of just as much player cleverness as any class.  Plus if you have more options on your sheet (and casters do) then you have more tools in your bag for these creative solutions.Or you can summon monsters who want to grapple.  Or you can ensure that you are never within 5ft of the fighter.  Or you can use save-or-lose against the fighter rather than damage.  Oh, and where's he getting that fire resist from? A caster, maybe?  Thing is, with divinations, powerful transport spells and so on you can arrange the conincidences to your liking.  This is really the true power of casters - with the appropriate prep you can assure that the combat will almost always take place under situtations which favour you.  Scry/Buff/Teleport is the most degenerate of these approaches but really getting good intel and being able to completely change the combat options you have at your disposal with eight hours notice does the trick too.  You don't need the DM to give you a break because you can make your own luck.  Something that fighters really can't do, at least not in a way thats available to all other characters. The arguement goes something like this - fighters are weak (and more damningly, rather boring) compared to full casters.  The Bo9s classes are closer in power (and more importantly, in interest) to the casters, and are hence balanced with the casters, *not* the original fighter.  Its not power creep because if you wanted to be more powerful you played a caster - its just expanding the number of options within the power range already established.  Clearer?</blockquote>

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