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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8620847" data-attributes="member: 18">Same. We've got two Fighters in 5E, both very experienced players, one of them has complained that his character is &quot;boring&quot; a number of times. 4E we had one (but I played really only in one group in 4E), and he was Battlerage Vigor and totally out-of-control insane awesome.Interestingly looking at the groups&nbsp; I've played 5E in Paladin is the most popular &quot;melee&quot; class by some margin. And most of those are not old-fashioned &quot;holy&quot; Paladins, but other kinds.&quot;Not for you or anyone you've played 5E with&quot;, you mean?I mean, there is no subclass that no-one loves. No matter how bad or obscure or pointless. Someone loves it, and will play it by preference. Even Purple Dragon.I'm not saying no-one likes it. I'm saying the logic that it's &quot;for new players&quot; or &quot;training wheels&quot; or indeed that it &quot;needs to be in the PHB&quot; is really faulty. Even you are an ultra-experienced veteran player, and you like it, not some new player. New players aren't into that kind of thing, in my experience. Especially younger ones. It's grogbait.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 8620847, member: 18"] Same. We've got two Fighters in 5E, both very experienced players, one of them has complained that his character is "boring" a number of times. 4E we had one (but I played really only in one group in 4E), and he was Battlerage Vigor and totally out-of-control insane awesome. Interestingly looking at the groups I've played 5E in Paladin is the most popular "melee" class by some margin. And most of those are not old-fashioned "holy" Paladins, but other kinds. "Not for you or anyone you've played 5E with", you mean? I mean, there is no subclass that no-one loves. No matter how bad or obscure or pointless. Someone loves it, and will play it by preference. Even Purple Dragon. I'm not saying no-one likes it. I'm saying the logic that it's "for new players" or "training wheels" or indeed that it "needs to be in the PHB" is really faulty. Even you are an ultra-experienced veteran player, and you like it, not some new player. New players aren't into that kind of thing, in my experience. Especially younger ones. It's grogbait. [/QUOTE]

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