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Message: <blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6186804" data-attributes="member: 6681948">OK, presumably we started with Locate Creature.  To be able to cast that, our Wizard friend must previously have been within 30' of a Black Dragon (and survived), but let's assume his non-wizard friends enabled that to happen.  It works like Locate Object (a thin sheet of lead blocks it) and cannot get past running water.  Assuming he is within 400' + 40' per level, he can find the Black Dragon.  YAY!  Bob can cast Teleport, so he's at least 11th level.  That's 840'.  Our Dragon is to be a challenge to the group, right?  Looks like a CR 14 mature adult to challenge the whole team (or two CR 11 adults, I suppose).Where is the Black Dragon's lair?  Probably deep in a swamp.  How does our Wizard friend get through the swamp, especially loaded up with divinations in place of combat oriented spells?  I suggest his Fighter friend had a lot to do with that.  So, now we have located the Black Dragon (or one of them if there were two adults) and have an approximate location of its lair due to Locate Creature.Clairvoyance next.  We must be in range, since it's the same as Locate Creature (but that means we stay here in the swamp while we cast).    How did the lair become familiar to you?  Even if it is, I suspect it is dark, though not magically so, leaving you with a 10' radius from your Clairvoyance.  The sensor does not move, and the spell notes magical senses don't work through the spell.  So how did you manage to determine the access from a sheer vent, much less that it is full of traps and/or magic?  Detect Magic, by the way, has a 60' range, so you need to get a LOT closer.Don't you have Teleport already to get out of the swamp?  You are L11, so you can bring three companions.  No mounts, animal friends, familiars, etc., though (your own familiar being OK since you can share the spell with him).  Let's hope the dragon doesn't go anywhere during your rest and relaxation.  We'll assume you don't roll poorly and have a mishap.So, you Teleport to the vent entrance.  You float down, never touching the walls.  As you get within about 50' of the lair, you pass the area the Dragon warded with its Alarm spell (which is more than 60' from the vent entrance, so your detect magic would not have picked this up - mature adult black dragons are 5th level Sorcerers, remember?  So he is awake.What are you using to see?  A Light spell that surrounds you in a glowing nimbus through the vent and the dragon's lair?  Let's assume you also cast Darkvision to avoid that problem.Now the problems start.  You get to the bottom and you don't see the dragon - it is too dark to see waaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there.  Why?  Because our Dragon friend used his Darkness (3 times a day) to shroud an area between you and him shortly after you set off his Alarm spell.  The entrance is not 200' (Spectral hand range) away from the Dragon.  It's in the range of 80' to 100'.  So, having awakened from the Alarm and slapped that Darkness between him and the entrance, we now have you at the bottom of the vent, 20' away his 20' radius magical darkness, and 30' past that (sure, he's in the darkness), the Dragon.  Like all Dragons, he has Blindsense, so he can detect you from 60'.  He has been waiting for you, having Readied his breath weapon for when you come into the area (the acid line being 80' long, you will be well within it).  So, 14d4 acid damage with a DC 26 reflex save for half.  You probably have a spell up to protect you from acid damage - oh, wait, you didn't actually say you were taking any such spells, did you?But let's assume you survive that.  Your spectral hand also needs to save - if not, it's gone.  So, you have just been surprised by the Black Dragon's readied action, maybe took some more damage (on top of the d4 you moved into your Spectral Hand, which is likely gone now), and we can roll for initiative.  I like your odds of winning initiative - he has +0.  So, you can't see the dragon through the darkness.  What now?  I'm thinking you don't want to spend a full round casting Summon Monster.  Shivering Touch is a crapshoot as it needs to hit (only AC 8, though) and get past that Miss chance, and the dragon's spell resistance, plus directing that spectral hand against the approximate source of that acid may be challenging.The Dragon might, perhaps, use a Web spell now (he's a sorcerer, remember?) to block up your escape route up the vent.  It probably also closed to the edge of its Darkness, so it's only 10' away from you.  That means that you are within its Reach of 10'.  Hope you don't fail your Concentration check if you try to cast Teleport and get out of here.  A Crush by the dragon would be pretty effective too.  Oh, and this is before I consider that black dragons are amphibians - why would it not sleep in a lair filled with water?Jack the Fighter: Sounds like the Dragon should be up any time now with our 20% finder's fee.  Anyone know any more arrogant, overconfident wizards we can invite on the next "dragonslaying mission"?The battle can have a lot of different assumptions, of course.  Dandu's suggestion to see how two real characters perform (I picked L11 because of the suggested Teleport spell, by the way; somehow had that in my head as L6 instead of L5 - 10th works fine too).  Of course, the real test is in play, since we need to see a variety of challenges, and a variety of assumptions ("I know what it is and it will be the only encounter in the day" being very different from "we don't know what to expect so I need a diverse spell selection" for wizards, but fighters have the same abilities day in, day out).</blockquote>

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