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Message: <blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6189547" data-attributes="member: 6681948">I agree that the question of whether you can take 10 is very much a matter of interpretation.  [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] makes a comment re planar binding that interpretation should favour the words included having a purpose.  I both agree and acknowledge that this is a legalistic view in that each word of a statute is presumed, when interpreted by the courts, to have meaning.  Legislatures and legal draftsmen, however, often make it difficult to maintain this belief… To the broader issue, I don’t disagree that divination spells can make the location process a lot easier.  My disagreement was with a presumption I don’t believe you have espoused, that divination spells can effectively provide the wizard with a fully keyed map of the dragon’s lair and its local environs. Ultimately, the adventure in any game I’m in would have several different means by which the dragon’s lair can be located, because that was the point of having a dragon’s lair in the adventure in the first place.  I do not believe, however, that the players (wizards or otherwise) can readily and conclusively pin down all of the details of that lair. Odd – I’d envision them spending way more time underwater, and it’s pretty clear the bow doesn’t work underwater at all, I believe.  As well, slashing weapons aren’t much use underwater, are they?  It seems like the author just applied the standard Elf proficiencies.  Either that or the abilities are intended less for a race of elves that lives underwater than a more amphibious elf, but they maintain a limited period of survival out of water, so that’s not it. I chalk it up to writer laziness in cut & paste of standard elf abilities as we write up another half dozen elven subraces.  Looking at their w/u, “A lizardfolk is automatically <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficiency" target="_blank">proficient</a> with <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons" target="_blank">simple weapons</a> and shields.”  I believe that makes bow users unusual. In any case, would it be reasonable to agree that, in a game where the appropriate response to “the dragon’s keen sense of smell detects the invisible wizard creeping into his lair” is “dragons do not have scent included in their writeup, so that cannot happen”, the bow wielding lizardfolk are equally impossible?  That’s not the game I play, and I suspect it’s not the game you’re playing, so the only point that bow-wielding lizardfolk would concern me is if the outlier guards/scouts/hunting parties all had javelins, but once we planned an attack based on that level of armament, suddenly the other lizardfok had bows. Depends on his time requirements.  One minute per level is a “full combat” spell, but not that long for reconnoitering.  Overland Flight is long term, but its maneuverability imposes that stall speed, so the wizard loses the ability to hover and has to constantly move, meaning a greater risk of detection even if invisible as he moves back and forth through the swampy areas. You know, I never considered what happens if a flying wizard stops taking actions.  If he “cannot act”, does he fall (presumably at the slowed rate as a Fly spell ends) or hover?  Which one requires he use an action?  Is that clarified anywhere? Regardless, it would require Fly, not Overland Flight.  He could certainly be invisible up there and be within the 100’ or more range to use his Magic Jar.  Be a bad time for the dragon to fly in through his airspace, but that’s not far off the previous javelin users discovering the bow just in time for our attack. OK, let me ensure I understand the proposition.  First, the wizard secretes his invisible body somewhere it’s not easily stumbled upon, but within (say) 100’ of the lizardfolk village.  Then he Magic Jars into a Lizardfolk (presumably selecting an area where there are only two life forces that could be lizardfolk, and selecting one, ideally one with a 4+ HD advantage over the other, being the finest differentiation he can make).  Assuming that works out (and I don’t like the Lizard targets odds of making the save), we now have a wizard in a lizardfolk body who attempts to take down the second lizard quickly, without attracting more attention to himself.  He’s a L10 or so wizard, and likely arranged to ambush a 2 HD standard Lizard who is taken by surprise, so that should be practical. What now?  He’s in the Lizard body.  Does he drag the prisoner back to his body (easier said than done if he’s using that hover in place trick, and likely to attract attention if he has to drag the fellow through the village)?  Does he end the Magic Jar and hope his now vacated host doesn’t raise the alarm?  He’ll have to vacate eventually.  Does his Lizard host teleport him back to his host body so he can then teleport out after ending the magic jar?  Does the GM notice that “You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent (see below) per three caster levels.”, emphasis added, and question the willingness of the KO’d lizardperson?  Does he accept a KO’d Lizardperson is really more an object, and if so does it fall within “You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load.”, emphasis added?  Lizardfolk weigh 200 lb plus.Overall, I’d say it can be done.  I don’t think it’s foolproof or trivial in its simplicity, though. I doubt either wants the dragon to fall ON him. Looking at the writeup closer, they are noted as trying to force foes into the water where they have an advantage, but that advantage seems to be limited to an extended ability to hold their breath.  They get the same swim speed everyone else does (poor guys lost most of their aquatic advantages!).I looked for an update several times yesterday, too!  Of course, spells and relative character power in OOTS is exactly what is required for plot and/or humour, and typically links to gamer tropes, whether correct or incorrect, but definitely the same issue going on here. Why is the Cleric out of spells, and the Fighter the one holding the line?</blockquote>

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