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Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)
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<blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6189620" data-attributes="member: 6681948"><p>Dragons have a lot of feat slots available to them. I don't see Scent on their "favoured" list, I believe due to Blindsense being a standard ability. I do not see anything in the Lizardfolk writeup that suggests the standard ones can, by the rules, learn to use bows rather than simple weapons. They do have a feat free, I think, so I guess that's one option.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Depends how far you want him to go, whether he's accosted by any of his fellows, etc., but 20 minutes is at least a reasonable period of time.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I compare it more to the scouts, hunters and guards all having javelins, but bows suddenly appearing once the players make a plan assuming they have no bows which is based on evidence. If the scout had a bow and a quiver, then we have no issue, to my mind. But I'm also OK with the Dragon taking Scent. And how does the PC know Dragons never have a great sense of smell anyway? Do wizards also get free online access to the SRD?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>OK, first, I don't think it's that easy to bind yourself. How many ranks does your wizard have in Rope Use? You also need that possessed lizard to remain within range of your real body (200 to 300 feet at 10 - 20 level), find the rope, tie himself up(!) in some unnoticed space you can readily access later, in the 20 minutes before you turn visible and start drifting back to earth? I'd have to say probably, but not necessarily. Would it work that easy in the fiction? Maybe, maybe not. The same certainly applies here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The one aspect I see remaining is that the Lizardman is not a willing target of your Teleport, so you need to get him somewhere you feel secure removing his gag in order to question him.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In my games, one of two results would occur. "Nothing goes wrong; you are outside the Lizard village with a tied and bound Lizardfolk. What now?", or something arises in the course of the plan and we play it out. To my mind, the most likely results there are still either success or escape - the likelihood the 10th level wizard is captured or killed by the lizard tribe is slim to none. That said, I'm not of the "taking prisoners is foolish - defeat means death" mindset either.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Is it the Dragon's move once you cast the spell? I believe he used a standard action and committed to a move action, after which you cast your Readied spell to interrupt (ie end) his move. Pretty minor issue in any case - it won't be "Dragon falls, everybody dies".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True, poor fools - they keep making that same mistake, don't they?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd say they're human beings - and as such, they will still make suboptimal decisions on occasion. Much of raining soldiers, though, does involve dehumanizing the enemy, or so I am told.</p><p></p><p>My counterquestion - are (or should) all adventurers Navy SEALS, or is a variety of personalities, backgrounds, etc. preferable? The Wargame answer is "All trained, ruthless combatants willing to do whatever it takes to complete the mission". The storyteller/indie answer typically isn't.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That is the assumption - [MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] gave us an actual character, which allows an actual assessment of his capabilities at any given time to be made. I suspect he would have a spell load heavy on duplicate Fly, Invisibility and escaping spells to go in after that Lizardman, so he could get out if things went wrong. He'd switch those to invade the dragon's lair, of course. But he doesn't lay claim to every spell in the Compendium plus a few extra, and any magic item he should choose to have in his possession. This allows a more reasonable evaluation.</p><p></p><p>I definitely think he could meet the challenge of locating the dragon's lair. That does not, however, meet the challenge of infiltrating it and defeating the dragon. And, as he has said, he doesn't plan on doing that alone.</p><p></p><p>I also think capturing a lizard man, or otherwise locating the dragon lair, without magic is possible.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This also comes to NPC spell selection and utilization - how often does that NPC mage have, and cast, some blasting spells the PC's would never deign to carry? When do they duplicate PC tactics?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="N'raac, post: 6189620, member: 6681948"] Dragons have a lot of feat slots available to them. I don't see Scent on their "favoured" list, I believe due to Blindsense being a standard ability. I do not see anything in the Lizardfolk writeup that suggests the standard ones can, by the rules, learn to use bows rather than simple weapons. They do have a feat free, I think, so I guess that's one option. Depends how far you want him to go, whether he's accosted by any of his fellows, etc., but 20 minutes is at least a reasonable period of time. I compare it more to the scouts, hunters and guards all having javelins, but bows suddenly appearing once the players make a plan assuming they have no bows which is based on evidence. If the scout had a bow and a quiver, then we have no issue, to my mind. But I'm also OK with the Dragon taking Scent. And how does the PC know Dragons never have a great sense of smell anyway? Do wizards also get free online access to the SRD? OK, first, I don't think it's that easy to bind yourself. How many ranks does your wizard have in Rope Use? You also need that possessed lizard to remain within range of your real body (200 to 300 feet at 10 - 20 level), find the rope, tie himself up(!) in some unnoticed space you can readily access later, in the 20 minutes before you turn visible and start drifting back to earth? I'd have to say probably, but not necessarily. Would it work that easy in the fiction? Maybe, maybe not. The same certainly applies here. The one aspect I see remaining is that the Lizardman is not a willing target of your Teleport, so you need to get him somewhere you feel secure removing his gag in order to question him. In my games, one of two results would occur. "Nothing goes wrong; you are outside the Lizard village with a tied and bound Lizardfolk. What now?", or something arises in the course of the plan and we play it out. To my mind, the most likely results there are still either success or escape - the likelihood the 10th level wizard is captured or killed by the lizard tribe is slim to none. That said, I'm not of the "taking prisoners is foolish - defeat means death" mindset either. Is it the Dragon's move once you cast the spell? I believe he used a standard action and committed to a move action, after which you cast your Readied spell to interrupt (ie end) his move. Pretty minor issue in any case - it won't be "Dragon falls, everybody dies". True, poor fools - they keep making that same mistake, don't they? I'd say they're human beings - and as such, they will still make suboptimal decisions on occasion. Much of raining soldiers, though, does involve dehumanizing the enemy, or so I am told. My counterquestion - are (or should) all adventurers Navy SEALS, or is a variety of personalities, backgrounds, etc. preferable? The Wargame answer is "All trained, ruthless combatants willing to do whatever it takes to complete the mission". The storyteller/indie answer typically isn't. That is the assumption - [MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] gave us an actual character, which allows an actual assessment of his capabilities at any given time to be made. I suspect he would have a spell load heavy on duplicate Fly, Invisibility and escaping spells to go in after that Lizardman, so he could get out if things went wrong. He'd switch those to invade the dragon's lair, of course. But he doesn't lay claim to every spell in the Compendium plus a few extra, and any magic item he should choose to have in his possession. This allows a more reasonable evaluation. I definitely think he could meet the challenge of locating the dragon's lair. That does not, however, meet the challenge of infiltrating it and defeating the dragon. And, as he has said, he doesn't plan on doing that alone. I also think capturing a lizard man, or otherwise locating the dragon lair, without magic is possible. This also comes to NPC spell selection and utilization - how often does that NPC mage have, and cast, some blasting spells the PC's would never deign to carry? When do they duplicate PC tactics? [/QUOTE]
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