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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cadence" data-source="post: 6195923" data-attributes="member: 6701124">I'm trying to parse this through and keep getting side-tracked by your posts in other threads on the merits of 4e (which you are quite convincing at).I don't think I'd say it's GM forcing for me that makes it immersive, but rather metagame mechanics that make it anti-immersive.Are there any happy gaming tables that don't have at least an implicit social contract around genre? What is an overt one?--I'm having trouble with "mere colour".  On the surface that's how I'd describe a lot of 4e (we have a bunch of mechanical and meta-game things we can do that all have the same in game effect, but we're going to reskin them so it seems like you're doing something different).   Or is it that when it's well done the 4e player should put in the descriptives of what they're doing and not just the non-colour part of what they're doing?Is the GM describing what you see based on the roll and what you tried to do an "other non-mechanical technique"?  I'm trying to picture the way a fireball spell in pre-4's resolution would be described relative to a similar fire power in 4e and I'm failing to see it.--Does scene framing mean the GM doesn't roleplay the NPCs? In a recent game I played in, the party came across a girl tied to a stake as a sacrifice to a local witch.  We untied her and left a brief sincere note (that we actually wrote down sitting at the table) saying the girl seemed really uncomfortable, we hoped it was all a misunderstanding, and we'd like to come by and chat about it after we brought her home.   The GM clearly wasn't expecting us to write a note.   If the GM has a clearly set picture in their mind of how an NPC thinks, should they roll to see how she reacts to the note (1e-ish) or just have her react in the logical way for that character (2e-ish).  Is the later GM-forcing?   Would an ad-hoc "group note writing to a witch" difficulty assignment also have been based on the GM's mental picture of the NPC?   Is the only effective difference between the just-deciding and the die-rolling resolutions in this case that a bit of randomness was added?</blockquote>

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