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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6196819" data-attributes="member: 22779">But, that's the problem.  I'm not disregarding ANY rules.  I'm playing by the rules.  Heck, I'm using Charm Person exactly as it's meant to be used, and being told that's abusing the rules.  The problematic elements are being negated for some groups, by the exertion of DM's Force and a liberal application of Rule 0 to either interpret the rules in such a way as to negate player successes (the Chamberlain's attitude cannot be changed, no matter what) or manipulate and massage the game world to negate player successes (yup, you get to see the king, but, some random NPC we mentioned three sessions ago (the barmaid) poisons you and you die - AKA Rocks fall you die).I mean, is casting spells exactly as written, with the intent that the spell is supposed to be used really abusing the rules?  Apparently it is.  And this is why you don't see people casting illusions in games, because it's too much Mother May I.  This is why you see DM's talking about how Invokers are the powerful casters in their games.  Of course they are.  When every spell is interpreted in the most negative way possible, then of course people are only going to use those options which are least subject to interpretation.  But for those of us who aren't interested in this kind of gaming, we're pretty much left in the cold.  The solution being put forth is that we should abandon our playstyle and adopt a much heavier handed DMing style than we are comfortable with.  How is that not pure Badwrongfun?  "There's no problem with the system, you're just doing it wrong" is the basic message here.Look, as I said earlier, this isn't a problem I saw a lot of in my own games.  Mostly because my players weren't interested in core casters.  When you don't have any core casters in the group, these problems go away (largely).  Additionally, we didn't play high level games that often, which further reduced the number of times we saw the problem.  But, on the occasions where we did have high level games with core casters, it was ALWAYS a problem.  There are just so many ways for core casters to sidestep things that unless you're willing to go to the lengths that you are proposing, groups will, IMO, almost always have these issues.  It's unavoidable.  The cleric will overshadow the fighter.  The wizard will be game changing.  He can't not be game changing.</blockquote>

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