Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6197785" data-attributes="member: 6696971">"Genre atmosphere" and "player action making scene boring to remove conflict" do not comport with one another and, conceptually, the two are likely completely decoupled.To the first part (genre atmosphere), this a product of (i) system expectations and the inherent tools to engender specific genre play/tropes and (ii) social contract.  If you want high fantasy/mythic play/big damn heroes, then (to take some current genre elements) your fighters are going to be calling upon John McClain and your Rogues are going to be calling upon Indiana Jones.  You aren't going to find any "HP as meat" expectations here.  You aren't going to be framing situations/challenges and the evolving narrative of conflict resolution around "what can mundane, every day people accomplish".  Again, "what is genre relevant" takes primacy.  "What can mundane, every day people accomplish" leaves John McClain hobbled with shredded feet, out of bullets, and shot up in a vent duct.  I want him mummy-walking through the rubble, mist, and chaos,  utterly unrecognizable due to the beating he has taken, but pistol strapped to his back by tape so he can face down Hans with one last Yippie Kay Yay and a well placed headshot.  "What can mundane, every day people accomplish" doesn't get me that and placing binding task resolution to process simulation over genre logic constrains narrative output to the point that the tropes that define the genre are impossible to have emerge through play.To the second part, isn't all functional play (be it combat or non-combat, conflict resolution) about player(s) action removing/resolving conflict (by vanquishing foes/defeating challenges) or escalating conflict/complicating their situation (by either failing to achieve a sought end or winning but at a price steep enough to qualify as Pyrrhic)?  "Player action making scene boring to remove conflict" is difficult for me to access precisely what you're visualizing.  If I can reframe what you're saying I likely have something I can grasp that is central to this thread; Disparity of resource breadth/potency between players making spotlight sharing a GM-force issue rather than an emergent quality of the ruleset in play.  I can always frame new conflicts, put something at stake, challenge my players.  The problem I have is when its my responsibility to artificially manipulate the efficacy of a suite of resources to achieve parity.  I want the ruleset to have the parity thing resolved so I can spend the totality of my mental overhead working to achieve awesome (*** by framing thematic conflict > players engaging it via PC build > resolving it via resolution mechanics > story and complications emerge > go back to step 1.).  To sum up, when done effectively (via technique and ruleset that supports rather than pushing against you) there is no such thing as "player action making scene boring to remove conflict".Intra-class balance in Indie play is typically assumed as "parity amongst classes to resolve or reframe conflicts".  Consider the unified mechanics and broad (borderline open) descriptor nature of 4e and MHRP.  Here parity is well achieved but the unified class mechanics creates a battle-cry of "sameiness", "everyone casts spells or has the same powers" and the broad/open descriptor of skills/effects creates the "players will just try to justify the usage of their best skill and leverage their highest die powers/specialties for dice pools" (13th Age's background system suffers the same naysaying).  However, for thematically tight "Indie" play, scenes are being framed and fictional positioning evolving such that while decision-points will be opening up, choices will also be functionally guiding future resolution options/engagement.  If your intent is to "get away from snake men pursuit with pilfered idol" and you fail a ride/navigation check, some impediment (physical or otherwise) needs to complicate your path to your sought end; perhaps a gorge.  Gorge is now in the way and pursuit is closing?  No you have to still (i) get away (1st order) by dealing with the (ii) intervening gorge and closing pursuit (both derivative of the 1st order intent, the mechanical resolution and the evolving fictional positioning).Classes that can leverage more profound resources and/or more broad resources have advantage over those with less profound resources and/or more narrow resources.  The first class (or group of classes) will be resolving more conflicts, reframing more conflicts, or playing a more robust role in the "team effort" to resolve conflicts.  Given that you're specifically focused on thematic, genre-relevant scenes that "drive play toward conflict", you aren't interested in "off-screen", world-building, rife with GM-force justifications for circumventing functional conflict resolution by disengaging the resolution mechanics.  Especially not for the sake of pre-planned story or story hammered into shape by heavy application of GM-force.  You're looking for story to be the emergent by-product of *** above.That is one part of it, but it is certainly deeper than that.  My problem lies in (the heart of the discusion of which you disagree with the premise) the "agressively hegemonizing ursine swarm" who can leave the Fighter in the dust in the resolution of combat (the Fighters only theatre of conflict resolution that he is allowed to be functional in for whatever reason)...and fly...and talk to nature itself (and its component parts)...and travel through trees...and contain a forest fire with a deluge...and feed a starving village with a bounty from the earth...and assume any appearance...and change into a dire bear or a giant fire/earth/water/air elemental.  Etc, etc.  I was taking creative license and using metaphor <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />  Sub "decapitate giant with axe" for "Spectral Hand > Shivering Touch" or "Love's Pain > Mindrape" or "Shapechange (into Dragon)" or "Gate in Solar" or "Incantrix Persist Build (for ridiculous melee potency)" or any number of summoner builds + summon monster wands with devastating buffs for summons and AoE debuffs/control effects for enemies.  It is just terribly easy to dominate the threatre of combat with a few spells and a DC-irrelevant wand or two and still have plenty of utility spells available.</blockquote>

Verification