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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6199129" data-attributes="member: 42582">To be frank, I think I'm better qualified than you to assess widespread contemporary practices in playing D&D in a period when I was playing, and reading the paraphenalia associated with it (eg White Dwarf, Dragon Magazine) and you were not yet, or only just, born.Concerns about GM force go back a long way. Lewis Pulsipher discusses them (in the context of Gygaxian-style play) in the late 70s and early 80s. And concerns about the integration between world-building and PC thematic heft go back a long way (they are in play in an excellent article on alignment in Dragon 101, "For King and Country").As for the relevance of other RPGs - where do you think 3E got its skill system from? Monte Cook was the lead editor for Rolemaster, and a frequent contributor to Rolemaster material. Iron Crown Enterprises, which publishes Rolemaster, was in the 80s the second-biggest RPG publisher, I think. (Due to its Middle Earth licence.) The other major fantasy RPG of the time, RuneQuest, was also a skill-based system.You are a frequent advocate of WP/VP mechanics. The first version of those mechanics was published, in White Dwarf, in the very early 80s: the article is called "How to Lose Hit Points and Survive", by Roger Musson. It was not written in a vacuum. The popularity of other games which did not rely on hp attrition for combat, and concerns about "realism" and simulation and so on, were all important factors back then just as they are now.3E has a history, and sits on a trajectory, in broader trends of game design, and any discussion of how it was designed, and how it might be played, which disregards that context, is likely to be attenuated.And I gave extensive replies explaining my reading of those passages. Particularly that - in my view - they are concernred primarily with GM authority over backstory and over PC fictional positioning as a factor in scene-framing and therefore a contribution to action resolution. I wouldn't go so far as to say that [MENTION=6701124]Cadence[/MENTION] agreed with me on that, but he(?) didn't seem to think me obviously wrong, either.There are many things a GM can have authority over. Except in relation to fudging dice rolls, which itself he hedged around wtih many qualifications, Gygax does not in my view suggest that the GM has authority over outcomes.Of the genre credibility test. Not of outcomes. Not of "events that occur in the gameworld".If you fail to distinguish between authority over backstory (and how that can be distributed among participants), authority over scene framing (and how that can be distributed among participants), authority over permissibility of action declaration (and how that can be distributed among participants), authority over oucome (and how that can be distributed among participants), etc, you won't make much progress in analysing the variable dynamics of RPG play.To look at the Chamberlain, for instance: there is a huge difference, in play experience, between a game in which the GM responds to the player's declaratin of a Diplomacy check "The Chamberlain doesn't listen to you, and instead storms off", and in which the GM responds "The Chamberlain has his fingers in his ears, so I don't think he'll be able to hear you. So can you tell me more about what your guy is doing?".The first approach involves the GM specifying the content of the shared fiction. The second involves the GM helping achieve clarity on exactly what it is that a player is suggesting introducing into the shared fiction. The first suggests closure. The second suggests invitation. For many RPGers, at least, these differences are a big deal.I've certainly seen it argued that 3E does support this, through its rules for Craft and Profession skills. I personally don't agree - I think those skills are, except in the most marginal instances of play, mere colour masquerading as elements of PC build - but I think I'm in a minority in this respect.Just to add to what [MENTION=6695799]ImperatorK[/MENTION] said - that doesn't mean that the issues it addressed were of little concern to most people. What RPGs have sold more than 4e? Only some other versions of D&D - 1st ed AD&D, 3E/PF, perhaps B/X, perhaps 2nd ed AD&D. As a game it's hardly been a marginal presence in the history of RPGing.</blockquote>

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