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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6201632" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Great!  I'll work on this in the next bit.  But before I do so, I'm going to need to assure frame of reference at fundamentals is calibrated.  As below:Since you want it presented in 4e terms, I'll answer these questions with respect to that edition:1 - The dragons themselves (eg the ones in the manuals) have a fixed difficulty with respect to age; eg an Ancient Red Dragon is a level 30 Solo Monster while a Red Dragon Wyrmling is a level 5 Elite.  Therefore, if the premise of the game is to resolve a conflict where a major (or the primary) antagonist is one of these creatures, it is understood that the game's level should inherently follow.  The tiers Heroic, Paragon, and Epic carry with them thematic, genre underpinnings that mandate that the GM's primary responsibility is to challenge the PCs with genre-relevant conflict that they can engage with and resolve.  The subjective DC and math-by-level architecture of the system allows for this to be performed in a fully open-descriptor manner.  It is outcome based design rather than process based (eg 3.x).  For instance, here is the GMing process at work:DMG1 p 46 breaks out the genre conceits/constraints of each tier of play.  Let us assume the PCs have worked their way through the Heroic Tier.  By the end of the Heroic Tier, the PCs should have: - Achieved fame and legend that may help them or haunt them. - Saved villages, steadings, settlements and other stakes on that level. - Explored haunted crypts, fought savage gnolls, leagues of orcs, cultists, ghouls. - Possibly slain a Hydra, a powerful Young Dragon or an Adult White Dragon, Kraken, Ettin, or Troll King. - Maybe even seen the other side and returned from the dead with the Raise Dead Ritual. After that, Paragon Tier will include much more grand designs and much deeper powers.  If the stakes involve entire Kingdoms/city-states, this is where PCs should be facing obstinate chamberlains reluctant to allow their kings audience/council with the PCs.  The PCs will have incredible power that, as they move their way toward the end of the tier, only a few in the world will possess.  They are no longer shackled tot his plane, they can hold an entire horde off at a pass, they can come back from the dead without much trouble...almost (but not quite) routinely shaping existence to their will.  By Epic tier, they can do the latter.  By the end of Epic tier, they are truly Gods among men.  Now that you have a rough, very abridged, version of the genre conceits/constraints of 4e by tier, take a look at <a href="http://slyflourish.com/master_dm_sheet.pdf" target="_blank">this.</a>  This is the math that 4e GMs use to construct and resolve their scenes/challenges.  One issue right quick with respect to your quote directly above.  Again, an Ancient Red Wyrm is a level 30 Solo challenge.  This is an end game, region dominating/threatening, probably only of its kind in the world Epic Tier antagonist.  If you want the Paragon Tier analogue, the Adult Red Wyrm is a level 15 solo and a fitting challenge/threat to a kingdom.  Now, due to 4e's open/broad descriptor nature and its subjective challenge, its outcome based design, we can certainly move the Ancient Red Wyrm to the Paragon tier just as a reskinned Adult Red Wyrm.  As pemerton mentioned before, Neverwinter Campaign Setting advocates for drifting tier conceits in just such a fashion.  However, make no mistake, it would be drifting tier/genre conceits.  So, with that said, do you want:1 - Adult Red Wyrm threatening the kingdom.2 - Ancient Red Wyrm reskinned as Adult Red Wyrm.3 - The scene to be foreshadowing the portents of the absolute end game, where the PCs will be pitted against an Ancient Red Wyrm.You pick and let me know.I am going to frame this as a level 14, Complexity 2, social challenge for level 14 PCs.  Reviewing the math of the GM cheat sheet, it will include Easy DCs (15) for any support actions and 5 Medium DC (21) must be successfully passed and 1 Hard DC (29).  As below:[h=1]Skill Challenge Complexity[/h] <table style='width: 100%'><tr><td>Complexity</td><td>Successes </td><td>Advantages</td><td>Typical DCs</td></tr><tr><td>2 </td><td>6</td><td>—</td><td>5 moderate, 1 hard</td></tr></table>I'll get a hold of my players and we can work up 3 quick characters with different suites of resources and do this tonight.  It will probably take 40 minutes all told.  I'll then write this up later tonight or tomorrow.  I hope this post and the playtest scene will be illustrative.</blockquote>

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