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Message: <blockquote data-quote="sheadunne" data-source="post: 6202697" data-attributes="member: 27570">I'm having a difficult time trying to unpack the chamberlain example. Maybe people can help me with it.What has been defined1) Players want to see the king2) Players go to see the chamberlain to ask to see the kingIs that correct?My first question is, what is the players' goal? In my understanding visiting the king isn't a goal, it's a means of achieving a goal, same as seeing the chamberlain. If that's true, then what is the player's goal in seeing the king?What I think this example may need for me is a players' goal. What if the player's goal is to get permission to wear weapons in the Town of CoolFantasyName? That seems to be a goal I can understand.Revised Example1) Players' want permission to wear their weapons in the town of CoolFantasyName (Goal)2) Players' need permission from the king3) Players' need to see the chamberlain in order to see the kingNow how do you frame the scene with the chamberlain? Does it change anything having a defined goal? Do we need to step back and ask why the players need to wear weapons in CoolFantasyName? I think that any example we use is going to have issues, since no matter what the example, the context is going to be missing. Everything that came before it is no in the example. Framing scenes should be based on the context of the game. If the game is political intrigue, then certainly the chamberlain scene should be framed to further emphasis that intrigue. If the game is a hack-n-slash focused game, then the scene can easily be framed where ninjas attack the chamberlain when the part arrives. I think most people game this way (but I don't know everyone). Where there's difference is how those scene may be resolved. One way is always a mechanic resolution. The scene is framed in a way that players can use their resources to overcome the obstacle, whether they succeed or not is based on the die roles. Another way is purely through roleplay. The results of Dip/Charm are based on narrative, not on die rolls. Once the scene is resolved (by whatever method), how the following scene is framed is also a bit different. One way may be to frame the next scene based on how well or poorly the players interacted mechanically in the previous scene. If the players succeeded mechanically with the chamberlain, then the next scene may be framed with an audience with the king. If the scene failed mechanically, the next scene might be the players leaving the castle where they see a man being attacked by brigands, who after they rescue, turns about to be the nephew of the king, who takes them to see the king for thanks. In this example, the plot is developed through utilizing the mechanics of the game. There's isn't one in advance. Die rolls determine the next path. Another way is to provide more narrative interaction for the players based on a predetermined series of events (although hopefully by providing information to the players on possible next steps). The players go to see the chamberlain who's in a foul mood and doesn't want to listen to dirty, smelly adventures and sends them on their way. But during the narration, the players learned that the chamberlain was acting a little strangely, he kept looking over his shoulder at another man, dressed in black, wearing a rapier. Was the Chamberlain being blackmailed? Had an old enemy returned to thwart their attempt to see the king? The players know that if they want to see the king, they now have to resolve this other issue, which is part of a much bigger plot already in the works. No die rolls are necessary, since the scene is more of a redirection to the bigger plot rather than a scene frame to advance player goals. It designed to advanced story/plot goals.I can certainly find fun in both. I prefer to play in example one and prefer to run in example two (although probably a milder version than some of the other examples in the thread). I think though that I'm getting closer to resolving my play/run differences. I will probably end up in the middle somewhere like I find a lot of gamers.One can also see how the two example may exasperate or defuse any issues regarding unbalanced mechanics. In example one, if there is an imbalance between character resources (one character have more than the others or access to more power things than the others), it will be more difficult to frame the scene so that all players have the opportunity to use resources. In example 2 it doesn't matter if there's one character with tons more resources, since the resources don't allow the character to further the plot/story through narration. Anyway, it's certainly always an enlightening conversation here on En World. And it always adds a bit more to my own gaming. Carry on!</blockquote>

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