Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6204377" data-attributes="member: 6681948">Why can't the player group select the AP?  They have now selected the theme of the game and the BEG (even if they don't know who the BBEG is). They then design PC's based largely on the Players' Guide which they likely read in deciding to choose this particular AP, which provides them with the guidance to build PC's thematically linked to that AP.  Now, that's less player designed than a game where the GM creates everything from scratch, so it's a point on the continuum.  But I doubt that you are custom designing each and every being and creature the PC's interact with from the ground up to maximize thematic relevance. I rather suspect you are using standardized write-ups from, say, a Monster Manual, NPC's with the same spells and abilities written up in a PHB product, etc., so that is also a point on a continuum.  Depending on the nature of the detectors and the rule of the spell, they either find them or they do not. The GM determines this, so by your comments, I believe you would say he controls the flow of information. I would say rather that he adjudicates the flow of information based on the information that exists to be found and the manner in which the players locate it. He has already determined whether that ESP spell is needed - it may be common knowledge that the three fellows in orange robes come from the Wizardry Guild and there are always three of them at Court to detect for magic, in which case no spell is needed.   Is getting past the Chamberlain to make a case to the King a combat or a social problem?  I suggest the King will not graciously receive a group of brigands who burst in covered with the blood of his loyal courtiers. But let's take that further. Your job is to ensure each scene is challenging, right? So the L14 PC's face an appropriate challenge convincing the unarmed, unarmoured,78 year old Chamberlain to allow them an audience with the King. If they turn this into a combat encounter ("I waste the Chamberlain with my crossbow", does he suddenly morph into a Hulk like being to provide a L14 challenge? Do guards that were not there before suddenly appear? Do we see the concept of Calvinball? Or is killing the Chamberlain simply a failure of the social challenge? Or must matters now work out that the Chamberlain was a traitor, and his death results in the gratitude of the King for the PC's rooting out the traitor, when all the players really did was get frustrated and take a stupid out of character action, because they may only fail forward?  So why can't the players' first step in discovering the secret backstory be a visit to the Chamberlain which flies in the face of their expectations?  They have discovered something - that all is not right in the King's Court and that the Chamberlain is somehow involved - which plays to that secret backstory which, presumably, is thematically relevant.  Why can't they succeed and be discovered, or fail and have the bribe go unnoticed?  Why is that inconceivable?  Isn't it your job to turn the heat up when they succeed (not when they fail) to maintain a challenge?    In any case, the PC's wanted to see the King and the GM-created chamberlain is an obstacle in attaining this goal.  Your differentiation above seems to me less about whether the chamberlain is an appropriate and thematic challenge and more about the level of difficulty and effort required to resolve the challenge. It's not about theme - it's about speed/pacing.  Oh, good - I, the player, set the consequences.  Very well,  if I succeed, the Chamberlain grants us an audience to the King, who names my character Crown Prince. If it fails, he grants an audience, but the King only rewards us with a barony and a fortune in precious jewels. Such is his gratitude because we removed a stray cat from a tree outside the palace. You're  not going to override my Player Agency, are you?  Again, point on the continuum, not binary switch.  You’ve said you will not frame a scene the players cannot succeed in. You therefore would not frame a scene with a Dragon the characters cannot defeat nor, by extension, a Chamberlain they cannot persuade.  So the players ask to see the Chamberlain, and you refuse to frame the scene. They believe they could enhance their fame in the kingdom to better their odds of seeing the King by slaying the dragon, but you won’t frame that scene.  So they now need a third scene to suggest.  If you, the GM, just pick the scene, what became of their player agency?  This gets at an issue I’ve been considering for a few days now. We keep discussing “Indie”, “Storytelling”, “Wargaming” and now “Sandbox” playstyles, but I don’t believe there are four styles we can cram everything into.  I think there are a lot of different aspects to style.  You note above a continuum of player-centricity to the plotline.  I think Indie demands a high degree, but the others can have a higher or lower degree. Storytelling can be based around PC goals, as can wargaming.  The PC’s pursue their goals as they see fit in Sandbox games, for sure.  Sandbox and Indie are more differentiated by whether the world focuses on their goals or whether they must sort out the opportunities that will best attain their goals from less relevant opportunities. Two more aspects, to me. Pacing of any style can be faster or slower. I mentioned above whether scene framing guarantees the PC’s what they want. Even NPC proactivity can vary - in some sandboxes, the NPC’s are active behind the scenes, while in others they wait in stasis until the PC’s take an interest in their part of the world.  Similarly, in [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]’s example, the PC turned NPC shows up as an advisor, so he has been proactive behind the scenes while in other games he might not reappear unless sought out by the PC’s.  Another continuum – are there side quests and distractions, or does the game proceed linearly, always flowing directly to the next relevant resolution? I don’t think any of the four posited playstyles inhabit some unique location on any of these various continuums, although I do think some styles have points on some of them that they cannot occupy.  But I don’t believe any of the styles can be simply defined, either.  Example:  [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] will frame the “see the King” challenge at any level, where [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] defines it as a challenge for early teen levels.  Is one of them not playing an “Indie” game?Is information read out by the GM, or learned in play?  Does the GM bring the tavern to life with NPC occupants the PC's interact with, or just tell them flatly what their Gather Info check learns?  Do the players decide what intel to seek, or does the GM read them the info they find?  Again, I don't think all Indie games will answer the same way, nor that there would be no overlap between Indiel and other styles' answers.</blockquote>

Verification