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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6204627" data-attributes="member: 6696971">1 - I've read the 3.5 DMG again and I'll work up a post here about a few various issues that I have with some contentions that are being put forth (and some agreements).2 - My players and I ran the chamberlain/king scene last night and I'll post the results and some analysis in the coming days.3 - Relevant to the above:  I don't know why this is still unresolved but I'm going to try one last time to put this to bed. A:  "Indie play" has nothing to do with the pace or the default thematic implicatons/tier of 4e.  "Thematic tightness/focus" generally is a specific feature of "Indie play".  But 4e's pacing of D&D thematic content, with respect the "very D&D" level-game, is orthogonally related.  "Indie play" has many features (of which I've gone through several above) such as, but not limited to, "say yes or roll the dice", "focused thematic premise(s) that game seeks to address", "players as protagonists with focus on-screen", "resource schemes/means, techniques and conflict resolution mechanics meant to empower players to impose their will upon the fiction, up to and including generating setting content", "GM generating content/complications/adversity that is immediately relevant to the focused thematic content and/or premise(s) being addressed." B:  4e is a "subjective, broad (borderline open and can be used as open if you just want to use the math and then refluff as you wish) descriptor game."  You can, as you wish, move thematic content up and down the tier (Heroic, Paragon, Epic) continuum.  In fact, as has been mentioned multiple times, NCS provides an in-depth tutorial on how to contract all of the Heroic and Paragon tier into just the 10 levels of Heroic tier play.  You could go even further if you wish; eg go the 13th Age route and contract all of the 3 tiers into just 10 levels.  It would be absurdly easy to do and the game is built (the tight, explicit math and the refluffable thematics) to do just that.  Its why you see many 4e hacks into various genres. The engine is so slick that it is easy to do.  However, there is a default (that, as above, can be drifted at your discretion) thematic guidance to the tiers.  DMG p146-7 lays out the general thematic guidance for the Tiers of play.  4e DMG 2 p 176-185 lays out Paragon tier themes.  Dungeon magazine has articles galore on this.  The default is for Heroic to be villiages/steadings > baronies/duchy and crowns/monarchies at the end of the tier and into the beginning Paragon.  Specifically in Paragon Tier is outlined "Crowns and Thrones" as a Paragon theme.  Epic it is other-planar; exarchs, demon lords, gods, primordials, et al.  For the most part, it just tries to give players an idea of the pacing for a 1-30 campaign, the scope and gravity of their influence and the threats they will face.  This is absolutely driftable, contractible, etc at players' discretion (with some overhead required for the handling of related thematic material). The DMGs provide an extremely low resolution (intentionally) accounting and provide broad themes.  There is no forbidding the drift of appealing to a King at 1st level.  There is just broad thematic guidance that regales the players of the inherent default expectations of tiered play.  Appealing to Kings at 1st level (or even 30th), doesn't mean you're "doing it wrong" and it certainly doesn't mean that you are or are not playing "Indie Style". Of note, there are multiple Character Themes (meant to thematically assist in guiding the Heroic Tier of play) that are tied either directly or indirectly to a King. Of personal note, I have had my PCs (in the present game) appeal to a leader whose sway would be that of a great monarch at the end of the Heroic tier of play. Can we stick a fork in this one now?  Its well done. </blockquote>

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