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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6204725" data-attributes="member: 42582">This seems to me equivalent to saying that &quot;The Chamberlain won't talk to the PCs until events, rules or character choices warrant that outcome.&quot; It is true, but uninteresting, because tells us nothing about what constitutes a sufficient warrant. Whereas it is the nature of the warrant that is what differs across playstyles.It's true that I took &quot;the time is ripe&quot; to be referring to &quot;plot&quot; consideratins, not rules considerations.Agreed.Now we seem to be back in the language of &quot;plot&quot; rather than rules. Unconsciousness is hardly an obstacle in most versions of D&amp;D - the PCs cast a cure spell, or use some sort of mind reading ability, or cast Commune or Contact Other Plane.I don't know of any technique in D&amp;D for enforcing the idea of &quot;first act&quot; or &quot;third act&quot; other than GM force.What Hussar said. What is the preconceived sequence of events?This is my whole point! In classic dungeon play, this is worked out in advance. Skilled play then involves working around these obstacles to recover the secret backstory. But in urban/intrigue play, it is obvious that all this cannot be worked out in advance. Thus, casting Detect Magic is not in fact a device for the players to discover secret backstory; rather, it is a device whereby the players make the GM author some new backstory. &quot;Indie&quot; and &quot;storyteller&quot; take different views about how this authoring of new backstory is to take place.Hussar understood my meaning. I had hoped it was fairly clear that I meant &quot;The rules leave the GM no choice.&quot;Yes.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6204725, member: 42582"] This seems to me equivalent to saying that "The Chamberlain won't talk to the PCs until events, rules or character choices warrant that outcome." It is true, but uninteresting, because tells us nothing about what constitutes a sufficient warrant. Whereas it is the nature of the warrant that is what differs across playstyles. It's true that I took "the time is ripe" to be referring to "plot" consideratins, not rules considerations. Agreed. Now we seem to be back in the language of "plot" rather than rules. Unconsciousness is hardly an obstacle in most versions of D&D - the PCs cast a cure spell, or use some sort of mind reading ability, or cast Commune or Contact Other Plane. I don't know of any technique in D&D for enforcing the idea of "first act" or "third act" other than GM force. What Hussar said. What is the preconceived sequence of events? This is my whole point! In classic dungeon play, this is worked out in advance. Skilled play then involves working around these obstacles to recover the secret backstory. But in urban/intrigue play, it is obvious that all this cannot be worked out in advance. Thus, casting Detect Magic is not in fact a device for the players to discover secret backstory; rather, it is a device whereby the players make the GM author some new backstory. "Indie" and "storyteller" take different views about how this authoring of new backstory is to take place. Hussar understood my meaning. I had hoped it was fairly clear that I meant "The rules leave the GM no choice." Yes. [/QUOTE]

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