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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jackinthegreen" data-source="post: 6207976" data-attributes="member: 6678119">I perceive "ability to fail" as "the dice tell me I fail" usually.  That's something somewhat out of the DM's control.  The social contract is usually that the DM won't do the numbers such that rolling a 20 would still result in failure.  The players must always either have the opportunity to roll or the opportunity to find out, in reasonable time and through reasonable means, why something is going on that they can't impact at the moment.  What "reasonable time and through reasonable means" is will depend a bit on the players and what has already happened in the game.However, there is player investment to consider.  At some tables the fact that a player has put a lot of time and effort into something should very clearly send the message that that's what they want to engage with.  It is the social contract, again at some tables, that the player not get snubbed beyond what the dice themselves say.  The pertinent info to massive potential failures is given out early enough that the players can avoid them or at least not suffer huge setbacks.  Going back to the example of the jeweler moving shop: In the kind of play  @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=22779" target="_blank">Hussar</a>  seems to like the knowledge that the jeweler could move must be given beforehand so the players can take that into account.  And even then, if the guy has moved then there will be clues as to where he goes (that might be subject to die rolls) because the social contract requires and demands that the DM give the players something to work with along the lines of what they've been preparing for.I dearly hope we don't get hyperbole when it comes to possible examples of this.  It's looking like hyperbole won't really work here because that kind of tactic requires people be more on the fence about stuff than they actually are here.An example that might work with regards to finding out there are more magical protections they thought would be there might have to do with a previous skill check or encounter to gather information.  The rogue (or whatever class or character has the skills to handle this) might have indeed tried to Gather Information and succeeded on getting that information, but not succeeded on staying low and not drawing attention to himself.  How the DM frames that could have a range of possibilities, but in this style of play the main thing he needs to show if he expects the players to accept the extra magical protection is that someone overheard or perhaps that the person the rogue was gathering info from was a bit suspicious and raised an eyebrow or looked off to someone.  In that case calling for a Sense Motive (or Insight I think in other editions) might be one of the appropriate things.  The players get to know they might have failed at something and thus the scene is at least partially set up for later depending on the rolls.The nested checks and rolls don't go on forever of course since there does have to be an end.  Where that end is though might depend on the rolls themselves, and of course the style of play.  If it's a Skill Challenge with a set number of rolls then of course there are a set number.  If, however, it's more of a freeform encounter then making a few rolls might happen.  Starting at the top could be the Gather Information check to get info, which could outright fail, could "fail forward" in the sense of getting the info but drawing attention to oneself, or just outright succeed.  I imagine another option or two might be in there, but I think we all get the idea.  If it's the fail forward outcome then there's likely the Sense Motive roll next, and depending on that roll a Knowledge: Local check might be warranted to know who it was that was glanced to or even to realize more stuff about the person being talked to thanks to new circumstances and information.</blockquote>

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