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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6208092" data-attributes="member: 48965">Well in most of the sessions I've played in and many that I have DM'd... most if not all of the NPC's in the tavern are pre-created.  Maybe not detailed mechanically to the level of the PC's but they are still pre-determined.  Can a DM add more, sure... but he's still the one creating the NPC's and deciding whether they are or are not in the tavernOAN... rolling on a random table isn't the same as allowing PC's to make up back story... again the DM has final call since he is either selecting the random table or creating it and thus can insure coherency.  It's not an issue of determining back story in play it's about the methods to do such and how the different ones have different positives and negatives. No it's not theorycraft, I've run enough 4e to see it in action.  In fact I'm finding it hard to understand how indie games can push the fact that the mechanics for their games are supposed to empower the players in playing and achieving the goals of the game while at the same time minimizing the need for DM fiat when following the goals of the game (since to do otherwise is considered bad game design)... but then you claim it doesn't discourage thinking outside the box. For me thinking outside the box is going beyond what is on the character sheet (mechanics-wise) and allowing DM fiat in to cover things the rules don't.  It would seem the whole point of a well designed indy game (at least based around forge theory) is that you don't ever need to go outside the box... If your game is designed for the mechanics to give maximum player empowerment while minimizing DM fiat... in such a situation how does less thinking outside the box not arise??  The mechanics are designed to empower you why think beyond the box just select one of the power packages since more than likely anything out of the box won't be as effective.   IME, another is to have detailed and/or codified lists of abilities that the players nearly always turn to as opposed to thinking of something innovative, interesting or trying something not necessarily codified in said lists...Engaing the fiction != thinking outside the box, they are two different things so I have to ask... what the point of this question is?  The fact of the matter is that using backgrounds as such in 13th Age is exactly staying within the box, since that is how the mechanics for them work.  Again for me, thinking out side the box would be trying to use a background in some way that isn't stated or implied in the book... perhaps if a background was directly associated with a particular icon it could grant a bonus to the icon roll for that icon or something along those lines would be thinking outside the box.</blockquote>

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