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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6209817" data-attributes="member: 42582">I discussed this example extensively somewhere upthread.I don't think this is right per default 4e. If the check has been framed within the context of the skill challenge as a primary check; and if it succeeds; then I think the rules mandate that the players get closer to success in the skill challenge.The Intimidate example isn't an example of intimidatig the NPC but not getting closer to overall success. I think it is best understood as a case of GM's secret backstory shaping the ficitonal positioning - that is, the GM knows something about the duke that the players don't (namely, that he cannot be inimidated), and takes this into account when adjudicating the intimidate attempt.I think this is on the limit of acceptability for "indie" play. Part of what puts it on the boundary rather than outside it is that the players have the possibility of discovering this backstory wihtin the context of the scene and without having to attempt Intimidate, namely, via a successful Insight check.Something the DMG doesn't canvass with this example, but probably should, is ways that the PCs might change the fictional positioning such that Intimidate would become possible - for instance, not just by threatening the Duke, but by drawing his attention to some external threat so overwhelming that he can't but feel the force of it.</blockquote>