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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6210958" data-attributes="member: 22779">On the notion of the double standard.I'm a bit confused here.  I've been told that there is no difference between a fighter being able to go out and get a wish via paying some wizard and the wizard using Planar Binding.  They are the same apparently.Yet, the wizard gets hosed in every single example.  The demon comes back for revenge, twists the wish, etc.  Yet, the fighter gets his wish, no problems no fuss.How is that not a double standard?  The fighter tries to use diplomacy (character resource that he has spent lots of character resources on - high Cha, Skill Focus, possibly other things that might make Diplomacy a class skill) and auto-fails by DM fiat (the DM has decreed that you will not pass).  But, nothing bad happens to him.  He just can't go this way.  The wizard, OTOH, succeeds by using a Silent, Still Charm spell and still gets hosed in the end when the spell wears off - with examples including having three court wizards on hand to check for magical shenanigans.  Again, how is this not a double standard?I look at the Chamberlain example exactly the way it plays out in Return of the Jedi.  Luke hits the chamberlain with a Suggestion spell, and gets let into Jabba's throne room.  Does Jabba simply order Luke killed on the spot (which is the response that I've gotten from N'raac for doing pretty much the same thing)?  No.  He backhands the chamberlain "Weak willed fool" and then engages Luke in a bit of light banter.  Granted, Luke does get thrown to the Rancour, but, that's got nothing to do with the Chamberlain, success or failure.  That's a trap in the encounter.  Fair enough.  It's not like he got thrown to the rancour because he charmed the chamberlain.  He got chucked in because he failed to convince Jabba, through a couple of diplomacy and possibly intimidate checks.  And the failure to charm Jabba as well. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />Again, no real problems with that.  It happens.  Hutt's are immune to charm.  Fair enough.  Luke didn't have the right Knowledge skills to know that, so, fine and dandy, even if Luke's player may or may not have known.Or, go back to the Glabrezu example.  Here's a solution.  We Planar Bind the Glabrezu at the bottom of a pool of holy water.  Now, he's dead and we cut him up into bits.  We use the bits to power Simulacrum spells.  Costs me 600 XP (half HD) and I get a wish every 28 days.  After all, the wish is a racial ability, not tied to caster level (the Glabrezu lacks the caster levels to cast Wish as a spell).  So, bingo, bango, now I can power wishes.  It is 100% under the caster's command, so, I don't even have to be evil to do this.  And, the Simulacrum lasts forever (at least until it's killed).  Which is why I don't buy the argument that you can simply limit caster power by exercising DM force.  It doesn't work.  It's like the little Dutch Boy sticking his finger in the dike.  Plug one hole and three more open up.  There's umpteen different ways to skin the cat.  I mean, heck, what's to stop using Simulacrum on an Efreet?  Again, the wish power isn't tied to caster level (it only has a caster level of 12th to begin with).  That's even cheaper.So, we stop the Simulacrum spell.  But, to me, it's a never ending process.  There are just so many spells in 3e, that you can never bring the casters down to non-caster levels.  The only way you can do it is to either reject the core casters and go the sorcerer route, or, bring the non-casters up to par.  Or, you eject the entire system, and make all classes use similar mechanics, a la the 4e route.  Or, you go the AD&D route and really, really screw casters.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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