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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6212585" data-attributes="member: 22779">Honestly, it's probably true.  Some DM force will always be needed, at least in any game which requires a DM.  We're arguing over degrees, not over the existence of DM Force.  At least, I'm not.  It's pretty much impossible to game without some degree of DM force intruding.  My issue is with how it's being presented though.Wicht and N'raac are claiming that their rulings are not DM Force in any way.  That they are simply reading the text of the rules and applying what's there, while ignoring the fact that their particular rulings may very well not be contained within the text of the rules at all.  Now, when the text of the rules is bad - such as Astral Projection or Simulacrum, or Polymorph, then it's necessary for the DM to step in.I have no real beef with that.  These are fairly obviously problematic rules and are in need of a good scrubbing.  Where I draw the line though is the fact that the same line of thinking is then applied to player actions which are not abusive in any way.  When the player is following both the letter and the spirit of the rules and is still being blocked by the DM.  Such as using Charm Person on the Chamberlain.  Or manipulating the game world so that any success which is gained by the caster player only serves to have them succeed backward.  They do everything right, but it gets them no where and only serves to frustrate the players.The Glabrezu example is a very good example, in my mind, of this.  The player has done everything right.  He's gone through all the steps and summoned the Glabrezu with the intent of bargaining for a wish.  But, no matter what, he will not get that wish - the Glabrezu has granted a wish already, the Glabrezu will automatically reject all wishes that are not extremely penalizing to the caster, etc.  TL&DRThe issue isn't that the DM is stepping in and making rulings.  That's fine.  The issue is that game balance is being maintained this way.  The non-casters never have this conversation.  We have not brought up a single example of a problematic non-caster action.  The problem is entirely on the side of the casters, yet, still, people insist that the problem doesn't actually exist, or that the problem is entirely of the DM's own making.  The existence of a fairly lengthy list of problematic spells is, apparently, in no way indicative of disparity of power between casters and non-casters.</blockquote>

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