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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6225238" data-attributes="member: 22779">See, to me, there are virtually no sim elements in D&D.  And never really have been.  The combat system contains a couple of nods to simulation, but, that's about it.  The class system is not simulating anything in the game world.  HD and HP simulate what?  Or, put it another way, why does killing orcs make me a better cleric of the god of smithing?  Thing is, you can certainly share narrative powers within the context of a class/skill system.  I'd go so far to say that many of the more shared narrative games I've played still have class and or skill systems.But, since you have flat out stated that you control when skills can be used, then, obviously, it's not going to work for you.  If the players cannot dictate when their skills are being used, then sure, a skill system won't grant narrative control.  But, narrative control certainly does not need to be free form.  It's not binary - either no control or full control.  There are many, many shades of grey here.  4e provides pretty limited narrative control to the players (more than perhaps other editions of D&D, at least for non-casters, but, still pretty limited), and things like Action Points in 3e also provide narrative control to players.After all, I can spend an Action Point in 3e to say that I gain access to any feat for one round, despite having no prior training in that feat.  That's about as narrative as you can get in D&D./edit to addYes, Ahn, the latter is what I meant.  You have social gamers (from the sounds of it) who aren't terribly interested in diving under the hood of the game.  Compare to my group where we regularly rotate DM's, and, of the seven people in my group, the one with the least DMing experience has still run games for years.  Collectively, we're pushing two centuries of DMing experience in a very wide range of systems and play styles.  We are not social gamers.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></blockquote>

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