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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6236803" data-attributes="member: 22779">I guess, looking at the wizard example above, is why bother?&nbsp; Why would you put a wizard in the town where the players can sell their loot, and then have the wizard unavailable and then be coy about why he's unavailable?&nbsp; Isn't that a whole lot of work for nothing?The players have gone to see the wizard for a reason.&nbsp; They want to sell this loot.&nbsp; Obviously they are there because the DM has indicated that the wizard is actually in this town.&nbsp; It's not like the players have decided, on their own, that there is a wizard in this town that will buy their loot.&nbsp; So, they use the information given to them by the DM to make plans.&nbsp; But, then they have these plans foiled completely arbitrarily because the DM has decided that the wizard is &quot;busy&quot;.What a major PITA.&nbsp; It's such a huge waste of time at the table.&nbsp; Why bother?&nbsp; I guess that's my problem here in a nutshell.&nbsp; The DM is arbitrarily blocking player actions.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; What's the point?&nbsp; It's so disheartening to a player to actually try to be proactive and then have their ideas shot down in flames presumably because it doesn't fit with the DM's pre-ordained plot.&nbsp; No thank you.&nbsp; I don't want to play that way anymore.&nbsp; Pro-active players should be rewarded, IMO.Now, true, the player could be a jerk - trying to rob the magic shop at 1st level.&nbsp; Fair enough.&nbsp; But, throughout all of this, that's not been the issue.&nbsp; In all the examples put forward, the players have been attempting perfectly reasonable things.&nbsp; And, note, we're also talking in context of the DM limiting caster power in order to achieve game balance.&nbsp; This isn't a thread about problematic players or DM's.&nbsp; It's about whether or not it's effective for DM's to be that heavy handed when achieving game balance.To me, it's far more problematic that the DM has to show his or her hand so often just to keep the casters in line.&nbsp; Ahn's entire campaign setting is buit around casters and foiling casters.&nbsp; Note, non-casters are not even remotely an issue.&nbsp; But, we have to have all sorts of high powered, high magic settings, just to keep the casters in line.&nbsp; This is only true if you presume that D&amp;D is a world building system.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6236803, member: 22779"] I guess, looking at the wizard example above, is why bother? Why would you put a wizard in the town where the players can sell their loot, and then have the wizard unavailable and then be coy about why he's unavailable? Isn't that a whole lot of work for nothing? The players have gone to see the wizard for a reason. They want to sell this loot. Obviously they are there because the DM has indicated that the wizard is actually in this town. It's not like the players have decided, on their own, that there is a wizard in this town that will buy their loot. So, they use the information given to them by the DM to make plans. But, then they have these plans foiled completely arbitrarily because the DM has decided that the wizard is "busy". What a major PITA. It's such a huge waste of time at the table. Why bother? I guess that's my problem here in a nutshell. The DM is arbitrarily blocking player actions. Why? What's the point? It's so disheartening to a player to actually try to be proactive and then have their ideas shot down in flames presumably because it doesn't fit with the DM's pre-ordained plot. No thank you. I don't want to play that way anymore. Pro-active players should be rewarded, IMO. Now, true, the player could be a jerk - trying to rob the magic shop at 1st level. Fair enough. But, throughout all of this, that's not been the issue. In all the examples put forward, the players have been attempting perfectly reasonable things. And, note, we're also talking in context of the DM limiting caster power in order to achieve game balance. This isn't a thread about problematic players or DM's. It's about whether or not it's effective for DM's to be that heavy handed when achieving game balance. To me, it's far more problematic that the DM has to show his or her hand so often just to keep the casters in line. Ahn's entire campaign setting is buit around casters and foiling casters. Note, non-casters are not even remotely an issue. But, we have to have all sorts of high powered, high magic settings, just to keep the casters in line. This is only true if you presume that D&D is a world building system. [/QUOTE]

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