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Message: <blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6237835" data-attributes="member: 6681948">It does not seem that a plotline involving a wizard the PC’s are seeking out is “completely independent of player choices”.  Is it not the GM’s job to provide challenges?  The players have decided they can quickly and easily dispose of this magical loot by taking it to the wizard.  If he is simply there with a big bag of gold and a stack of barter choices, they trade in their magical loot with no challenge.  If he is missing, a challenge has developed.I see.  That would be why, for example, the Fellowship of the Ring got to dictate that the snows did not render the mountain passes too dangerous to pass, and they avoided those nasty Moria encounters altogether.  It certainly explains why, after Frodo expressed his lack of desire to slog across Mordor, they quickly discovered a different means of destroying the One Ring, in a fashion which was more to Frodo's liking.  This also explains why locating the whereabouts of the Holy Grail was a simple task indeed for the Knights of the Round Table, and, in the spirit of “Story Now”, they progressed directly to the challenges they must face to retrieve it. Or perhaps the world and history impact on the story more than you perceive, and the characters did not get to override the setting and history to quickly and readily move to accomplish their desired goals.The Star Wars setting posits Jedi powers which are extremely rare, and thus neither detection nor defenses seems logical.  There also appears to be some stigma attached to this approach, in that these powers are used on enemies and morally questionable targets (like stormtroopers and Bib Fortuna) but not on neutral parties or potential allies.  Why didn’t Ben use his Jedi powers to persuade Han to fly them to Alderaan, for example?Do you also accept the GM responding that the Chamberlain is not weak minded so it fails?  Luke fialied to influence Jabba, who was immune to his Jedi powers.  It seems he had no chance of success.Actually, at least some commentators on Star Wars also consider Jedi Mind Tricks an area of tricky ethics for the Jedi themselves.  From Wookiepedia:Luke's use of this power to influence Bib Fortuna is often considered an early indicator in RoTJ that he had grown in power, and that he was influenced by the Dark Side in using that power.  In general, overriding a person's free will is not typically considered a good act.  Making it obvious ib the King's Court seems an action a sensible player would avoid.Here we get into an area where we seem to be in agreement - the players and the GM should have a common vision of the campaign style and tone.  If the players are supposed to be Heroes of Justice and Righteousness, then robbing the local magic store is a disruptive action inconsistent with that tone.  If they are selfish, mercenary brigands and outlaws/criminals, then robbing the magic store for their own gain is perfectly in keeping with the campaign tone.  I agree it is best dealt with outside of the game.However, this seems less than relevant to issues such as secret backstory.  I also don't believe that the considering overriding of free will (or casting spells against members of the King's retinue in general) would not be viewed as socially acceptable is in any way heavy handed.  I think it would be appropriate for the GM to so state to the player suggesting his character will attempt to Charm the chamberlain.It seems like every suggestion that the PC’s cannot simply dictate every turn of events in the game world is interpreted as a complete inability of any action of the players to have any impact on the game world.  I also note that the ability of the players to “make meaningful changes in the gameworld via deploying their mechanical resources” presupposes a game world which exists now, and which they desire to change.  Where did that pre-existing state of affairs come from?  Historically, I believe it came from the GM.If the wizard is there, ready to buy their loot, there is nothing for them to change.  If he is not, they would deploy their resources to effect a desired change, whether that be locating the wizard or locating a different buyer.  The loot would not mysteriously transform into the purchases they wished to make with their loot, nor would the wizard actually be there after all, we just didn't see him in that corner, or he was in the bathroom.  The players would effect a change by using their available resources to overcome the challenge placed before them within the parameters of the setting and the situation framed by the GM (ie the wizard is not there and buyers for magical loot are not common - what will you do next?).</blockquote>

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