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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6240418" data-attributes="member: 42582">I think you are underestimating the significance of "making it happen faster without needing help or equipment" - if "it" refers to (say) building a castle, or crossing a continent, or learning the content of another's mind, then being able to do so withou needing help or equipment is a big deal.My experience with higher-level AD&D caster is that (i) they tend to overshadow other characters through their broad range of capabilities, and (ii) their ability to do certain things "faster witout needing help or equipment" enables their players to reframe many scenes in major ways. (Teleport and scrying are the biggest two contributors here.)In the post to which you replied, I said (and you quoted it), "Notice that both in the rules paragraph and in my paragraph it is the player, not the PC, who is dictating the weather. For a character to dictate the weather would require some sort of weather summoning magic.'I also said (and you quoted), "A skill is first and foremost a player resource: for instance, having a high Diplomacy skill (which is in part a function of level) means 'When I declare Diplomatic actions for my PC, things are more likely to go right.'"I'm therefore not sure why you are stating my examples back to me as if it were the character who is manipulating the weather or the presence/absence of the wizard. I understand that you do not enjoy RPGing in way that distinguishes player and character resources and capabilities; but I assume you are capable of drawing the distinction.This has nothing to do with my approach. My approach - as I think I made pretty clear - is one in which the skills on the character sheet are first and foremost player resources. A strong Weather Sense ability or a Diplomacy or Streetwise skill is a device for ensuring that, when my PC engages in that domain of actvity, s/he is likely to have things go the way s/he wants. What the ingame cause of that is is a distinctive question.Adding to what I said in the post that was quoted, and to sheadunne's comment: the GM would take the same approach as to any failed roll, that is, narrate a complication that increases the pressure on the PC in a way that thwarts the player's desire for the outcome of the situation. If the GM thinks that foreshadowing will help with this, then the PC correctly predicts bad weather. If the GM thinks that surprise will help with this, then the PC wrongly predicts desired weather. (In Burning Wheel, at least, the player will know that s/he failed the roll, so taking this approach would depend upon the player taking steps to keep player and PC knowledge separate.)In Burning Wheel, if in doubt the better roll wins. That solves the ranger/barbarian problem. It also solves the problem of the magical ranger vs the druid.If a caster is using Weather Summoning magic, and succeeds, that determines the fiction, and therefore determines the content of a successful prediction - just as  [MENTION=27570]sheadunne[/MENTION] described in his post.It is a bit frustrating when I describe play options in way that expressly presupposes a player/character divide, and have them (mis-)stated back in a way that runs elides that distinction.It is fine not to like a style, but it's not helpful in discussing it to misdescribe its techniques!</blockquote>

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