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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6241247" data-attributes="member: 42582">Of course you're not the only one who plays in a style that identifies player and character. My point is that it's not the only way of playing, and that there is no reason that D&D, even 3E, must be played that way.No. As I said in my post to which you replied, and as [MENTION=27570]sheadunne[/MENTION] said, and as was implied in the Burning Wheel rules text, if there is no prior determination of the fiction, then a successful Weather Sense roll allows the player to dictate the weather (and, in the fiction, means that the character learns what it will be).If some other character has used weather summoning magic, there is prior determination of the fiction. If the GM has already decided what the weather will be, then there is prior determination of the fiction. In that case, a successful Weather Sense roll means that the player, like the character, learns what the weather will be.(For what its worth, here are the difficulties (in BW, Ob 1 is as easy as it gets and Ob 10 is virtually impossible): Useless, vague prediction (eg “rain soon”), Ob 1; Accurate weather at vague location and time, Ob 2; Approximate location or time, +1 base Ob (+2 base Ob for both);Accurate location or time, +2 base Ob (+3 base Ob for both).)You could have a game in which characters have both Weather Sense and the ability to dictate the weather (eg a druid in many systems, including 3E).You could also have a game in which all player resources that do not correlate to character abilities were put into a separate pool (eg HARP almost counts as this).But D&D has, in my view never been such a game (eg hit points are a player resource with, at best, a highly ambiguous relationship to character abilities). And at least one good design reason in favour of not insisting on such a separation is that it permits "fail forward" narration of failed checks, which is fairly central to indie play. (And can be made a part of D&D: see 4e, see 13th Age, and there's no reason I'm aware of why 3E couldn't be played similarly.)As I've said, there is no inherent reason why 3E must be played this way. And I'd be surprised if no one ever played 3E using Survival skill in more of an indie style. (Of all the 3E skills, it is the one most obviously able to be adjudicated this way.)Gygax's game had nothing to do with "adventure paths". Look at the style of play described in his DMG: the GM is running the game basically every day (every real world day = 1 game world day), and those players who can turn up and choose a PC to play and do stuff.Tomb of Horrors was adapted from Gygax's campaign. (He designed it to defeat one of his players - I think [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] knows the story.)The characterisation of PCs appropriate to these modules might include having a favourite weapon or colour or catch-phrase, but (for instance) if a PC decides to try to ally with Kerpatis rather than steal the weapons back from him, the adventure as written is over. These aren't story elements within a dramatic campaign: they are challenges to be overcome.  And even if you swap the items in WPM, the idea that it is about the players having a "subjective experience" of being their PCs is risible! (And this is what @Ahehnois meant - he wasn't talking about the common experience of watching the same film or playing through the same module.) These modules are about beating the dungeon - about (for instance) working out how to break the glass to flood the ziggurat room, or working out how to remove dungeon doors to surf them over the super-tetanus pits. They're romps, not 2nd ed-style "storytelling" episodes.Of course not. That's my point. The way that you and Ahnehnois play D&D (which is not itself the same across the two of you, as best I can tell, but is more similar than either is to me or [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], as best I can tell) is not the only way it can be done, or historically has been done.For those who are playing differently, caster/fighter issues are real. For instance, does anyone think a 9th level fighter is as valuable in ToH as a 9th level cleric or wizard?</blockquote>

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