Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6241262" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>All correct <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Gygax's campaign was basically a sandbox with a rolling group of players and different numbers turning up each time. This is very different from an Adventure Path. Tomb of Horrors was designed to challenge Rob Kuntz (Sir Robilar's player) and Ernie Gygax when they were claiming Greyhawk was too easy - and the results of its first run were that Rob Kuntz and Ernie Gygax defeated the tomb, took all the loot and didn't lose a single henchman. Which is unsurprising as the Tomb isn't actually hard once you know the trick to it and years of playing with Gygax will have probably made the trick very obvious.</p><p></p><p>(My source for the story behind ToH is Mike Mornard/Old Geezer on RPG.net).</p><p></p><p>As for fighters vs spellcasters, Gygax spent a lot of time balancing fighters with casters for oD&D. He failed because the main fighter player was Rob Kunz - who amongst other things had a superb working memory and a lot of skill as a player. But most of the fighter balancing mechanisms were subtle and included rigging the loot table hard towards fighters by making it mostly swords (which clerics couldn't use), making swords do extra damage against large creatures, putting in a de facto level cap round 10th level, and giving fighters the best saves in the game. There was also a lot in the game to subtly weaken wizards - like save or suck and save or die spells being much easier to save against, spells known coming under the heading of loot that was assigned by the DM, a very limited number of spells per day, spellcasting disruption, powerful spells having drawbacks, and much more.</p><p></p><p>Every single one of these boosts to the fighter was either massively reduced or eliminated by 3.0. And every single one of the wizard restrictions was either removed or eliminated by 3.0. And they didn't go far enough - Gygax posted on these very boards that the reason for the seemingly overpowered fighter variants in Unearthed Arcana (like the Cavalier) was for balance, giving the non-casters a much needed boost.</p><p></p><p>But what really demonstrates the fighter/wizard balance problem is that we're talking about it. It should be an apples/oranges comparison. For balance purposes, the fighter should be compared to the spellcaster who can heal (therefore bringing far more endurance to the party than the fighter ever will) and bring down blessings for the rest of the party - but doesn't have many strong overt magical effects. The wizard should be compared to the lightly armoured utility guy who has a tendency to go squish in combat and hides in shadows pretty well. If the wizard is being compared to the fighter <em>in terms of combat potential</em> something somewhere has gone deeply wrong.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6241262, member: 87792"] All correct :) Gygax's campaign was basically a sandbox with a rolling group of players and different numbers turning up each time. This is very different from an Adventure Path. Tomb of Horrors was designed to challenge Rob Kuntz (Sir Robilar's player) and Ernie Gygax when they were claiming Greyhawk was too easy - and the results of its first run were that Rob Kuntz and Ernie Gygax defeated the tomb, took all the loot and didn't lose a single henchman. Which is unsurprising as the Tomb isn't actually hard once you know the trick to it and years of playing with Gygax will have probably made the trick very obvious. (My source for the story behind ToH is Mike Mornard/Old Geezer on RPG.net). As for fighters vs spellcasters, Gygax spent a lot of time balancing fighters with casters for oD&D. He failed because the main fighter player was Rob Kunz - who amongst other things had a superb working memory and a lot of skill as a player. But most of the fighter balancing mechanisms were subtle and included rigging the loot table hard towards fighters by making it mostly swords (which clerics couldn't use), making swords do extra damage against large creatures, putting in a de facto level cap round 10th level, and giving fighters the best saves in the game. There was also a lot in the game to subtly weaken wizards - like save or suck and save or die spells being much easier to save against, spells known coming under the heading of loot that was assigned by the DM, a very limited number of spells per day, spellcasting disruption, powerful spells having drawbacks, and much more. Every single one of these boosts to the fighter was either massively reduced or eliminated by 3.0. And every single one of the wizard restrictions was either removed or eliminated by 3.0. And they didn't go far enough - Gygax posted on these very boards that the reason for the seemingly overpowered fighter variants in Unearthed Arcana (like the Cavalier) was for balance, giving the non-casters a much needed boost. But what really demonstrates the fighter/wizard balance problem is that we're talking about it. It should be an apples/oranges comparison. For balance purposes, the fighter should be compared to the spellcaster who can heal (therefore bringing far more endurance to the party than the fighter ever will) and bring down blessings for the rest of the party - but doesn't have many strong overt magical effects. The wizard should be compared to the lightly armoured utility guy who has a tendency to go squish in combat and hides in shadows pretty well. If the wizard is being compared to the fighter [I]in terms of combat potential[/I] something somewhere has gone deeply wrong. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)
Top